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#861 [url]

Jul 26 12 3:10 AM

QUOTE (hippogriff @ July 26, 2012 02:54 am)
QUOTE (BirdGuy @ July 26, 2012 02:15 am)
To,be honesti think he become kinda lame on the Warlok and Enchantress,I Mean,He was a *censored* agente of the Dark Elders,and then *PRESTO*,He´s a good guy now,Don´t make sense o me.

Well, it gives small hints about his regrets throughout the series, and it actually makes sense. First of all, notice how it mentions that he has more humanity than Dee. Also take note of how in the Sorcoress, I believe, it mentions that his wife called him an inhuman monster and asked if his son Guido is an individual. You can also notice his faithfullness to his wife by never remarrying. Then, notice his fear of his masters, and then in the Necromancer, first Black Hawk's repiromanding him for surviving and not living, followed by his anger at Quetzaloatl treating him like a faceless mass, and judging him not on what he did, but on what others did, and saving him as a favor to his master. Also notice his friendship with Billy, who is himself moving against his Elder. In the Warlock, you can notice his complex struggle, where he talks to Billy, and suddenly realizes that he sees San Fransisco as a city of Individuals, not a faceless mass, and also his anger at Dee just using the attack as a distration. The whole time, he is becoming fed up with the way that the elders look at things, and as Niten says, realizes that he is human first, immortal second. Finnaly, in the Enchantress, he decides to help the Elders, but he is still in it for himself, as allying with the Elders helps save himself most likely, but it also will help him save the city. He becomes fully dedicated to redeeming himself, and is thus grief-stricken when Billy, who had been by his side the whole time, is grievously wounded, and he nearly burns himself up saving Billy. This, Machiavelli's journey is a long one, and he does not just suddenly switch sides, you can tell that this has been his mind for a long time, and the series is just the turning point. I persionally loved his emotional journey. Ah, well. If that clears it up for you, good, if not, everyone is entitled to their opinions.

I See now.i am brazzilian and i´m still learning english,i already know a lot,but wheni read books entirely in english,sometimes i miss small parts off the plot,But what you say is right,his change was subtle and slow,not the the "PRESTO" way,which i first think.

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hippogriff

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#862 [url]

Jul 26 12 3:15 AM

QUOTE (BirdGuy @ July 26, 2012 03:10 am)
QUOTE (hippogriff @ July 26, 2012 02:54 am)
QUOTE (BirdGuy @ July 26, 2012 02:15 am)
To,be honesti think he become kinda lame on the Warlok and Enchantress,I Mean,He was a *censored* agente of the Dark Elders,and then *PRESTO*,He´s a good guy now,Don´t make sense o me.

Well, it gives small hints about his regrets throughout the series, and it actually makes sense. First of all, notice how it mentions that he has more humanity than Dee. Also take note of how in the Sorcoress, I believe, it mentions that his wife called him an inhuman monster and asked if his son Guido is an individual. You can also notice his faithfullness to his wife by never remarrying. Then, notice his fear of his masters, and then in the Necromancer, first Black Hawk's repiromanding him for surviving and not living, followed by his anger at Quetzaloatl treating him like a faceless mass, and judging him not on what he did, but on what others did, and saving him as a favor to his master. Also notice his friendship with Billy, who is himself moving against his Elder. In the Warlock, you can notice his complex struggle, where he talks to Billy, and suddenly realizes that he sees San Fransisco as a city of Individuals, not a faceless mass, and also his anger at Dee just using the attack as a distration. The whole time, he is becoming fed up with the way that the elders look at things, and as Niten says, realizes that he is human first, immortal second. Finnaly, in the Enchantress, he decides to help the Elders, but he is still in it for himself, as allying with the Elders helps save himself most likely, but it also will help him save the city. He becomes fully dedicated to redeeming himself, and is thus grief-stricken when Billy, who had been by his side the whole time, is grievously wounded, and he nearly burns himself up saving Billy. This, Machiavelli's journey is a long one, and he does not just suddenly switch sides, you can tell that this has been his mind for a long time, and the series is just the turning point. I persionally loved his emotional journey. Ah, well. If that clears it up for you, good, if not, everyone is entitled to their opinions.

I See now.i am brazzilian and i´m still learning english,i already know a lot,but wheni read books entirely in english,sometimes i miss small parts off the plot,But what you say is right,his change was subtle and slow,not the the "PRESTO" way,which i first think.

Oh, well. Just trying to see if I ould explain. Sorry that paragraph I explained in was so large, though. I understand your confusion, though. It is explained a few paragraphs at a time and not all together, so if you are not specifically trying to see the Machiavelli subplot, it is easy to miss it. I have read the series about six times, and I only got to know and appreciate the Machiavelli character at about the third or fourth time.

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#863 [url]

Jul 26 12 3:22 AM

QUOTE (hippogriff @ July 26, 2012 03:15 am)
QUOTE (BirdGuy @ July 26, 2012 03:10 am)
QUOTE (hippogriff @ July 26, 2012 02:54 am)
QUOTE (BirdGuy @ July 26, 2012 02:15 am)
To,be honesti think he become kinda lame on the Warlok and Enchantress,I Mean,He was a *censored* agente of the Dark Elders,and then *PRESTO*,He´s a good guy now,Don´t make sense o me.

Well, it gives small hints about his regrets throughout the series, and it actually makes sense. First of all, notice how it mentions that he has more humanity than Dee. Also take note of how in the Sorcoress, I believe, it mentions that his wife called him an inhuman monster and asked if his son Guido is an individual. You can also notice his faithfullness to his wife by never remarrying. Then, notice his fear of his masters, and then in the Necromancer, first Black Hawk's repiromanding him for surviving and not living, followed by his anger at Quetzaloatl treating him like a faceless mass, and judging him not on what he did, but on what others did, and saving him as a favor to his master. Also notice his friendship with Billy, who is himself moving against his Elder. In the Warlock, you can notice his complex struggle, where he talks to Billy, and suddenly realizes that he sees San Fransisco as a city of Individuals, not a faceless mass, and also his anger at Dee just using the attack as a distration. The whole time, he is becoming fed up with the way that the elders look at things, and as Niten says, realizes that he is human first, immortal second. Finnaly, in the Enchantress, he decides to help the Elders, but he is still in it for himself, as allying with the Elders helps save himself most likely, but it also will help him save the city. He becomes fully dedicated to redeeming himself, and is thus grief-stricken when Billy, who had been by his side the whole time, is grievously wounded, and he nearly burns himself up saving Billy. This, Machiavelli's journey is a long one, and he does not just suddenly switch sides, you can tell that this has been his mind for a long time, and the series is just the turning point. I persionally loved his emotional journey. Ah, well. If that clears it up for you, good, if not, everyone is entitled to their opinions.

I See now.i am brazzilian and i´m still learning english,i already know a lot,but wheni read books entirely in english,sometimes i miss small parts off the plot,But what you say is right,his change was subtle and slow,not the the "PRESTO" way,which i first think.

Oh, well. Just trying to see if I ould explain. Sorry that paragraph I explained in was so large, though. I understand your confusion, though. It is explained a few paragraphs at a time and not all together, so if you are not specifically trying to see the Machiavelli subplot, it is easy to miss it. I have read the series about six times, and I only got to know and appreciate the Machiavelli character at about the third or fourth time.

I Know That feel.But to be honest,,despite the fact his change of heart was a good plot for the character,i still like him more as a bad guy,Because is studied the historicl Niccolo Machiavelli in School,,and i think he´s fit better in the characterization he had in the Magician,But this is my sole opinion.

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hippogriff

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#864 [url]

Jul 26 12 3:28 AM

QUOTE (BirdGuy @ July 26, 2012 03:22 am)
QUOTE (hippogriff @ July 26, 2012 03:15 am)
QUOTE (BirdGuy @ July 26, 2012 03:10 am)
QUOTE (hippogriff @ July 26, 2012 02:54 am)

Well, it gives small hints about his regrets throughout the series, and it actually makes sense. First of all, notice how it mentions that he has more humanity than Dee. Also take note of how in the Sorcoress, I believe, it mentions that his wife called him an inhuman monster and asked if his son Guido is an individual. You can also notice his faithfullness to his wife by never remarrying. Then, notice his fear of his masters, and then in the Necromancer, first Black Hawk's repiromanding him for surviving and not living, followed by his anger at Quetzaloatl treating him like a faceless mass, and judging him not on what he did, but on what others did, and saving him as a favor to his master. Also notice his friendship with Billy, who is himself moving against his Elder. In the Warlock, you can notice his complex struggle, where he talks to Billy, and suddenly realizes that he sees San Fransisco as a city of Individuals, not a faceless mass, and also his anger at Dee just using the attack as a distration. The whole time, he is becoming fed up with the way that the elders look at things, and as Niten says, realizes that he is human first, immortal second. Finnaly, in the Enchantress, he decides to help the Elders, but he is still in it for himself, as allying with the Elders helps save himself most likely, but it also will help him save the city. He becomes fully dedicated to redeeming himself, and is thus grief-stricken when Billy, who had been by his side the whole time, is grievously wounded, and he nearly burns himself up saving Billy. This, Machiavelli's journey is a long one, and he does not just suddenly switch sides, you can tell that this has been his mind for a long time, and the series is just the turning point. I persionally loved his emotional journey. Ah, well. If that clears it up for you, good, if not, everyone is entitled to their opinions.

I See now.i am brazzilian and i´m still learning english,i already know a lot,but wheni read books entirely in english,sometimes i miss small parts off the plot,But what you say is right,his change was subtle and slow,not the the "PRESTO" way,which i first think.

Oh, well. Just trying to see if I ould explain. Sorry that paragraph I explained in was so large, though. I understand your confusion, though. It is explained a few paragraphs at a time and not all together, so if you are not specifically trying to see the Machiavelli subplot, it is easy to miss it. I have read the series about six times, and I only got to know and appreciate the Machiavelli character at about the third or fourth time.

I Know That feel.But to be honest,,despite the fact his change of heart was a good plot for the character,i still like him more as a bad guy,Because is studied the historicl Niccolo Machiavelli in School,,and i think he´s fit better in the characterization he had in the Magician,But this is my sole opinion.

I agree. I like his plot device of turning good, but I have studied him and read the Prince, and I agree with you that he makes an excellent bad guy. However, the best thing for the series, I believe, is his redemption, as opposed to Dee, who did have a "PRESTO" redemption. (Well, not quite that fast, but once he was old, it was pretty fast.) but Dee too had a sort of journey in his argument with Virginia, though not quite as complex as Machiavelli's

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#865 [url]

Jul 26 12 3:37 AM

QUOTE (hippogriff @ July 26, 2012 03:28 am)
QUOTE (BirdGuy @ July 26, 2012 03:22 am)
QUOTE (hippogriff @ July 26, 2012 03:15 am)
QUOTE (BirdGuy @ July 26, 2012 03:10 am)

I See now.i am brazzilian and i´m still learning english,i already know a lot,but wheni read books entirely in english,sometimes i miss small parts off the plot,But what you say is right,his change was subtle and slow,not the the "PRESTO" way,which i first think.

Oh, well. Just trying to see if I ould explain. Sorry that paragraph I explained in was so large, though. I understand your confusion, though. It is explained a few paragraphs at a time and not all together, so if you are not specifically trying to see the Machiavelli subplot, it is easy to miss it. I have read the series about six times, and I only got to know and appreciate the Machiavelli character at about the third or fourth time.

I Know That feel.But to be honest,,despite the fact his change of heart was a good plot for the character,i still like him more as a bad guy,Because is studied the historicl Niccolo Machiavelli in School,,and i think he´s fit better in the characterization he had in the Magician,But this is my sole opinion.

I agree. I like his plot device of turning good, but I have studied him and read the Prince, and I agree with you that he makes an excellent bad guy. However, the best thing for the series, I believe, is his redemption, as opposed to Dee, who did have a "PRESTO" redemption. (Well, not quite that fast, but once he was old, it was pretty fast.) but Dee too had a sort of journey in his argument with Virginia, though not quite as complex as Machiavelli's

Oh,Man don´t even give me started on Dee´s redemption,i Hated that,serious, is the only thing in the whole series i hated

Please find time to refresh yourself with the Code of Conduct. You can only quote a maximum of 4 embedded post in your response to prevent the threads from clogging up. Thanks! ~ Moviebuff

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hippogriff

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Posts: 397

#866 [url]

Jul 26 12 3:43 AM

QUOTE (BirdGuy @ July 26, 2012 03:37 am)

Oh,Man don´t even give me started on Dee´s redemption,i Hated that,serious, is the only thing in the whole series i hated

Well, eveyone is entitled to their opinion. I personally liked the idea, but I thought that it was way too rushed, however, I believe that the whole Dee-Dare dynami as being part of his redemption kind of saved it. However, this is the Machiavelli topic, not the Dee topi.
Does naybody think that Machiavelli will ever reunite with Dagon?

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#867 [url]

Jul 26 12 7:06 AM

QUOTE (hippogriff @ July 25, 2012 10:43 pm)
Does naybody think that Machiavelli will ever reunite with Dagon?

I hardly believe it…if I remember correctly, they met on unusual circumstances, so I think is next to impossible that they meet again.

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hippogriff

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#868 [url]

Jul 26 12 1:12 PM

QUOTE (AlchemistMaster @ July 26, 2012 07:06 am)
QUOTE (hippogriff @ July 25, 2012 10:43 pm)
Does naybody think that Machiavelli will ever reunite with Dagon?

I hardly believe it…if I remember correctly, they met on unusual circumstances, so I think is next to impossible that they meet again.

I believe that it said that Dagon was dying when Machiavelli found him, but Machiavelli did call him friend, and we know that he survived, so perhaps that would be a short story of something, but yes, it is unlikely.

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