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dreamingofedward

Next Generation Elder

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#21 [url]

Dec 5 08 3:07 PM

QUOTE (Spacecadet @ December 05, 2008 08:32 am)
I definately think there is more to come from Machiavelli, and i also think Dee underestimates his abilities, and is a little to arrogant when it comes to machiavelli. I think machiavelli is biding his time and letting Dee think he's in control. When the right moment arises machiavelli will strike.

I too think he is sort of biding his time waiting for the right opportunity. I look at the scene where we meet him as a good indicator as to how patient a man he can be when he wants something (his wait for the mask his is looking to add to his collection) and so I think he is willing to be patient and strike when the moment is right - and only when it is right. Of course, I still debate with myself all the time as to what that strike might be or whose side it will be for....

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#22 [url]

Dec 5 08 3:32 PM

QUOTE (dreamingofedward @ December 05, 2008 09:07 am)
QUOTE (Spacecadet @ December 05, 2008 08:32 am)
I definately think there is more to come from Machiavelli, and i also think Dee underestimates his abilities, and is a little to arrogant when it comes to machiavelli.  I think machiavelli is biding his time and letting Dee think he's in control.  When the right moment arises machiavelli will strike.

I too think he is sort of biding his time waiting for the right opportunity. I look at the scene where we meet him as a good indicator as to how patient a man he can be when he wants something (his wait for the mask his is looking to add to his collection) and so I think he is willing to be patient and strike when the moment is right - and only when it is right. Of course, I still debate with myself all the time as to what that strike might be or whose side it will be for....

A part of me still hopes that he will turn out to be a good guy, but maybe that is just me trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. I hope that he gets so frustrated with Dee that he decides to either join the "good side" or at least do whatever possible to not help Dee's side.

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Godsryche

Next Generation Elder

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#23 [url]

Dec 5 08 3:59 PM

My favorite Machiavelli moment -

QUOTE (The Magician)

"You sound just like Dee."

"Oh, I am nothing like the English Magician," Machiavelli said feelingly. "Dee is a dangerous fanatic."

"And you're not?" Dagon asked.

"I'm only dangerous."

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dreamingofedward

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#24 [url]

Dec 5 08 4:46 PM

QUOTE (Godsryche @ December 05, 2008 10:59 am)
My favorite Machiavelli moment -

QUOTE (The Magician)

"You sound just like Dee."

"Oh, I am nothing like the English Magician," Machiavelli said feelingly. "Dee is a dangerous fanatic."

"And you're not?" Dagon asked.

"I'm only dangerous."

Good one! And I would love to see Machiavelli be the one to take out Dee. The tension that was built between the two of them would come to an awesome end if that was the case - I think I like that idea even better then seeing Flamel or Perry taking out Dee.

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#26 [url]

Dec 7 08 2:21 PM

QUOTE (Godsryche @ December 05, 2008 03:59 pm)
My favorite Machiavelli moment -

QUOTE (The Magician)

"You sound just like Dee."

"Oh, I am nothing like the English Magician," Machiavelli said feelingly. "Dee is a dangerous fanatic."

"And you're not?" Dagon asked.

"I'm only dangerous."

Yes it was a very great moment, but i don't know... i can't categorise Machiavelli yet i dont know enough things about him , just right know for me is a secondary character

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#27 [url]

Dec 8 08 9:47 PM

I'm not sure to say if he's a good or a bad guy, I think it's too early to assure him one side.
I agree with Zephfire, we have a lot to discover of him. In the magician it was introduced to us and we saw a little of him, I think that in the next book we may know more of him.

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#28 [url]

Dec 11 08 2:54 PM

well, i think even he is unsure of his loyalties, because even mars could not identify his loyalties, and when josh is awakened, he did not stop anybody from coming there, that is from the good side, nor did he warn dee of them coming....so i think he is just making up his mind about what to do, cos he has to be loyal to his elder, but, maybe he doesn't want to do so, and what i think will happen is that, (if mars survives) they both will join up against dee and his elders, and mars will again have a change of heart, and he'll give josh's awakening as a gift, and have his aura back in a proper condition by either sophie, or the witch of endor....

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Zephfire

Next Generation Elder

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#29 [url]

Dec 21 08 2:55 AM

How curious...whilst researching Saint Germain I came across a link between the Medici family and Saint Germain..Saint Germain was a student of Gian, last of the Medici.
We know that Catherine De Medici is living in Paris and is loyal to no-one, so seemingly immortal by her own hand and not tied to an Elder..
Then I found out that Machiavelli has links to Lorenzo (Giuliano) de Medici, at one point he offered Lorenzo "humble advice" on ruling Florence, in his book, "The Prince". So I wonder if, when Machiavelli says:

QUOTE (The Magician)
"Oh, but I do. I know him very well. This is the immortal human once known as the Comte de Saint-Germain."

he is referring to having met Saint Germain through the Medici family? Maybe they were once friends by their Medici links..or maybe it is their Medici links that is the source of their dislike of each other as Machiavelli seemed to not be too fond of the Medici's ruling style.

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#30 [url]

Dec 29 08 8:18 PM

Any thoughts on who machiavelli's elder is?
From the magician, his elder is supposed to be one of the strongest of the dark elders, but can't be as strong as Dee's elder.

QUOTE
The head of the DGSE frowned. Only the president of France, a few highly placed cabinet ministers and his own personal staff had this number. He hit Answer but didn't speak.
"The English Magician believes you will try and capture Flamel and the twins before he arrives." The voice on the other end spoke Greek in a dialect that had not been used in millennia.
Niccoló Machiavelli sat bolt upright in his chair, "Master?" he said.

We know his elder is from greek mythology and is probably male (Master instead of Mistress).

Alec jabbed a finger toward him. "Mostly extinct," he said, his voice trembling with rage, "is NOT EXTINCT ENOUGH." - Alec in City of Ashes by Cassandra Clare

Aura colour: Sapphire blue
Scent: Moonflower

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#31 [url]

Dec 29 08 8:42 PM

QUOTE (bilibulug @ December 29, 2008 02:18 pm)
Any thoughts on who machiavelli's elder is?
From the magician, his elder is supposed to be one of the strongest of the dark elders, but can't be as strong as Dee's elder.
QUOTE
The head of the DGSE frowned. Only the president of France, a few highly placed cabinet ministers and his own personal staff had this number. He hit Answer but didn't speak.
"The English Magician believes you will try and capture Flamel and the twins before he arrives." The voice on the other end spoke Greek in a dialect that had not been used in millennia.
Niccoló Machiavelli sat bolt upright in his chair, "Master?" he said.

We know his elder is from greek mythology and is probably male (Master instead of Mistress).

Really depends upon the dialect but I'd guess Doric dialect which would be in time with the god, Dionysus.

Nosce Te Ipsum/Know Thyself - One joy shatters a hundred griefs.
The promise given was a necessity of the past: the word broken is a necessity of the present. - Niccolo Machiavelli
That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange eons even death may die. - H.P. Lovecraft
A prince never lacks legitimate reasons to break his promise. - Niccolo Machiavelli
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#32 [url]

Dec 29 08 9:40 PM

Doesn't Dionysus seem a bit good to be a dark elder?
Well, he was said to be mad, but still I think Machivelli would have a darker more serious elder than Dionysus.

Alec jabbed a finger toward him. "Mostly extinct," he said, his voice trembling with rage, "is NOT EXTINCT ENOUGH." - Alec in City of Ashes by Cassandra Clare

Aura colour: Sapphire blue
Scent: Moonflower

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#33 [url]

Dec 29 08 10:38 PM

Well, we really don't know too much about any of the Elders/Dark Elders, but as for Dionysus as a choice, well, that may be in part because he reminds me of Machiavelli.
The character as presented is interested in arts {the mask collections} and finer things, and of course, his well known ability for strategy---all of which are characteristic of Dionysus mythos: the god of wine, the inventor and teacher of its cultivation, the giver of joy, and the disperser of grief and sorrow...he gave the "Midas Touch", he killed his kidnappers except for those who'd gone overboard and were turned into dolphins, set up the death of Lycurgus {who was drawn and quartered}.
Dagon: "Dagon, the name means "corn", is an ancient Mesopotamian vegetation god, father of Baal in his father's attributes. He is the god of crop fertility and the inventor of the plough. He passed this knowledge to mankind to let them better till the soil and produce food. Dagon's temples were in Philistine for about 2000 years, although Baal took over in most parts of the Middle East. Dagon is one of the really old gods. The Ras Shamra texts describe Dagon as coeval with El, who is the most ancient and senior of all the Semitic gods. Dagon's temple at Ashdod still existed right up until the time of the Hasmoneans [who ruled parts of Palestine in Jesus' days]. Dagon was portrayed half man and half fish".
Dolphins are associated with Dagon and can be seen depicted with him on ancient Etruscan amphoras and in ancient greek paintings. Dolphins too are part of the Dionysus mythology. Both Dagon and Dionysus have similar descriptions as "androgenous" and "god of harvest". So that, and the guess of the ancient dialect, is how I linked those three {Machiavelli, Dagon, Dionysus} in my mind.
Really though, the Elders being as old as they are, can we really know much of them based upon what language or ancient dialect they choose to speak? And can we ascribe a current character's humani persona to identify the Elder that they serve?

Nosce Te Ipsum/Know Thyself - One joy shatters a hundred griefs.
The promise given was a necessity of the past: the word broken is a necessity of the present. - Niccolo Machiavelli
That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange eons even death may die. - H.P. Lovecraft
A prince never lacks legitimate reasons to break his promise. - Niccolo Machiavelli
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#34 [url]

Dec 30 08 1:24 AM

My goodness JoyeuseOne! Good point well made! That was beautiful! wub.gif

I was in a play once as Agave, Pentheus' mother (In Greek mythology Dionysus is made to be a son of Zeus and Semele [Semele was killed by a bolt of lightning thrown by Zeus, the child was then 'finished' in Zeus' thigh]; other versions of the myth contend that he is a son of Zeus and Persephone) and I was heartily sacrificed for his progress...can't remember who wrote it but the point was the chap was a hedonist and seduced by the lifestyle of the Maenad ladies who pursued him! So not all good...but then who is?

I thought Hades would be Machiavelli's elder...he has the same warped ability to charm and manipulate that Mach has and also the hatred of Zeus to want to alter the world. And that pesky half-yearly aquaintance with Persephone...

Destiny is what we work towards. The future doesn't exist yet. Fate is for losers.


Are we Humani or are we dancers?

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#35 [url]

Jan 3 09 3:24 AM

QUOTE (JoyeuseOne @ December 29, 2008 08:42 pm)
QUOTE (bilibulug @ December 29, 2008 02:18 pm)
Any thoughts on who machiavelli's elder is?
From the magician, his elder is supposed to be one of the strongest of the dark elders, but can't be as strong as Dee's elder.
QUOTE
The head of the DGSE frowned. Only the president of France, a few highly placed cabinet ministers and his own personal staff had this number. He hit Answer but didn't speak.
"The English Magician believes you will try and capture Flamel and the twins before he arrives." The voice on the other end spoke Greek in a dialect that had not been used in millennia.
Niccoló Machiavelli sat bolt upright in his chair, "Master?" he said.

We know his elder is from greek mythology and is probably male (Master instead of Mistress).

Really depends upon the dialect but I'd guess Doric dialect which would be in time with the god, Dionysus.

I think that it would be Zeus, the Lord of the sky and the Gods, because I see Dee serving Chronus, which was the Titan Lord.
I don't really see it as Dionysus, the god of Wine. I'm thinking that as far as Immortal Humans and their masters, I have a feeling that their master is closely related to their Aura.

"Life is not the amount of breaths you take, it's the moments that take your breath away."

Aura Color: Orange
Aura Scent: Clementines

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#37 [url]

Jan 4 09 6:13 PM

Uhm, like others I think that the possibility of Dionysus being the elder of Machiavelli it can't be. I see more the god of wine being good because he gave humanity a lot of knowledge, eg. cultivation of wine, agriculture, theatre...It doesn't seem that a god who gave a lot to humanity doesn't want the progress, although maybe some of those gods lost hope in humans. flamelssecret/confused0058.gif flamelssecret/idk.gif

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#38 [url]

Jan 9 09 6:00 AM

Well, it's not just that he was the god of wine. Gods that were cognates of Dionysus, contemparies analogous to his godhead: Faunus, Inuus, Phanes, Protogonos, and Pan- the son of Kronus/Chronos, all are various horned-gods in mythology. From Pan's name we get the term panic, because following the Titans attack of Olympus, Pan claimed credit for the victory because he bragged to have inspired such chaos and disorder among the attackers that they fled in fear, which was his plan.
Speaks towards having an established strategem and then standing back and watching it unfold.
Niccolo was a Taurus too {the bull} and in the Chinese charts Taurus equates to the sign of the Snake {which we know is Machiavelli's smell}...well, that was an interesting find. Taurus/Snake is equated with Prithvi, the element of earth. Nicc's aura color is gray/dirty white, which is an "earth" color, but it's seemingly neutral -- as is Nicc's character at the moment.
I dunno, seems like a lot of dots loosely connected. Hmmm...well, like I said previously, I'm not convinced that we can select an as yet unnamed Dark Elder based upon the character-driven personality of an individual. It's fun to try though.

Nosce Te Ipsum/Know Thyself - One joy shatters a hundred griefs.
The promise given was a necessity of the past: the word broken is a necessity of the present. - Niccolo Machiavelli
That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange eons even death may die. - H.P. Lovecraft
A prince never lacks legitimate reasons to break his promise. - Niccolo Machiavelli
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#39 [url]

Jan 11 09 5:22 PM

QUOTE (JoyeuseOne @ January 09, 2009 06:00 am)
Well, it's not just that he was the god of wine. Gods that were cognates of Dionysus, contemparies analogous to his godhead: Faunus, Inuus, Phanes, Protogonos, and Pan- the son of Kronus/Chronos, all are various horned-gods in mythology. From Pan's name we get the term panic, because following the Titans attack of Olympus, Pan claimed credit for the victory because he bragged to have inspired such chaos and disorder among the attackers that they fled in fear, which was his plan.

Speaks towards having an established strategem and then standing back and watching it unfold.

Niccolo was a Taurus too {the bull} and in the Chinese charts Taurus equates to the sign of the Snake {which we know is Machiavelli's smell}...well, that was an interesting find. Taurus/Snake is equated with Prithvi, the element of earth. Nicc's aura color is gray/dirty white, which is an "earth" color, but it's seemingly neutral -- as is Nicc's character at the moment.

I dunno, seems like a lot of dots loosely connected. Hmmm...well, like I said previously, I'm not convinced that we can select an as yet unnamed Dark Elder based upon the character-driven personality of an individual. It's fun to try though.

Interesting facts Joyeuse, and on the topic of Dionysus, remember, he was born half mortal in mythology, then Zeus was so pleased with his invention of wine, that he offered Dionysus imortality as a god of Olympus.

"Life is not the amount of breaths you take, it's the moments that take your breath away."

Aura Color: Orange
Aura Scent: Clementines

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#40 [url]

Jan 13 09 12:02 AM

QUOTE (JoyeuseOne @ January 09, 2009 06:00 am)
From Pan's name we get the term panic, because following the Titans attack of Olympus, Pan claimed credit for the victory because he bragged to have inspired such chaos and disorder among the attackers that they fled in fear, which was his plan.
Niccolo was a Taurus too {the bull} and in the Chinese charts Taurus equates to the sign of the Snake {which we know is Machiavelli's smell}...well, that was an interesting find.  Taurus/Snake is equated with Prithvi, the element of earth.  Nicc's aura color is gray/dirty white, which is an "earth" color, but it's seemingly neutral -- as is Nicc's character at the moment.
I dunno, seems like a lot of dots loosely connected.  Hmmm...well, like I said previously, I'm not convinced that we can select an as yet unnamed Dark Elder based upon the character-driven personality of an individual.  It's fun to try though.

Oh, interesting that info from Pan, I didn't know it!
Incredible how in your research you related the signs of horoscopes and elements, you're a nice in those researches
What you said of Machiavelli's smell (snake) and the relation with the Chinese horoscope is really interesting, we know that everyone chooses the smell of his/her aura [at least, that's what I understand], I don't remember if in the Magician his reason for that smell was explained.

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