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Godsryche

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#341 [url]

Jul 31 09 12:20 PM

QUOTE (Spacecadet @ July 31, 2009 08:15 am)
QUOTE (Godsryche @ July 31, 2009 06:59 am)
QUOTE (Michael Scott @ July 30, 2009 06:24 pm)
QUOTE (mr_mears @ July 30, 2009 03:27 pm)
QUOTE (history @ July 30, 2009 12:16 pm)
I love the book. I have many questions!!! here are two of them-

How will Scatty and Joan return?
How will Josh learn the element of air and fire?

I've been thinking on the Scatty and Joan issue myself. I've read threads that say that all they have to do is wait and then they could just walk in at the exact moment the should have arrive in SF. But if you remember in The Alchemyst The Witch of Endor could see the different strands of time, possible futures. So the time line that Scatty and Joan are in now could be a completely different one than that from which they came. So waiting would be worthless.

One theory I have is that they use some of the items they have on their person from the era they came from to recreate Machiavellis "trap" he set at the Noter Dame in reverse... thats just one thought.

I have no thoughts on Josh's status right now.

So there is my opinion for what it's worth.

"Different strands of time..." is the important clue here.

Michael

So...is this one of things where they really aren't "back in time" they are just on a different strand that is technically in the same time as the "present"?

Im thinking its more they are definitely back in time, but that they are just back in time on another strand of time.

But see, that brings back the whole, how can Machiavelli control time? issue. Only the codex and Chronos have the secret to time itself.

Him sending them to another strand that is on the same time plane makes more sense, as he didn't manipulate time itself he just manipulated the strand Joan and Scatty were on.

On "our" strand the dinosaurs died out millions of years ago. On the strand Scatty and Joan are on, it's still 2007, just that the dinosaurs are still running strong (or at least a few of them are)

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Spacecadet

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#342 [url]

Jul 31 09 12:57 PM

QUOTE (Godsryche @ July 31, 2009 07:20 am)
QUOTE (Spacecadet @ July 31, 2009 08:15 am)
QUOTE (Godsryche @ July 31, 2009 06:59 am)
QUOTE (Michael Scott @ July 30, 2009 06:24 pm)
QUOTE (mr_mears @ July 30, 2009 03:27 pm)
QUOTE (history @ July 30, 2009 12:16 pm)
I love the book. I have many questions!!! here are two of them-

How will Scatty and Joan return?
How will Josh learn the element of air and fire?

I've been thinking on the Scatty and Joan issue myself. I've read threads that say that all they have to do is wait and then they could just walk in at the exact moment the should have arrive in SF. But if you remember in The Alchemyst The Witch of Endor could see the different strands of time, possible futures. So the time line that Scatty and Joan are in now could be a completely different one than that from which they came. So waiting would be worthless.

One theory I have is that they use some of the items they have on their person from the era they came from to recreate Machiavellis "trap" he set at the Noter Dame in reverse... thats just one thought.

I have no thoughts on Josh's status right now.

So there is my opinion for what it's worth.

"Different strands of time..." is the important clue here.

Michael

So...is this one of things where they really aren't "back in time" they are just on a different strand that is technically in the same time as the "present"?

Im thinking its more they are definitely back in time, but that they are just back in time on another strand of time.

But see, that brings back the whole, how can Machiavelli control time? issue. Only the codex and Chronos have the secret to time itself.

Him sending them to another strand that is on the same time plane makes more sense, as he didn't manipulate time itself he just manipulated the strand Joan and Scatty were on.

On "our" strand the dinosaurs died out millions of years ago. On the strand Scatty and Joan are on, it's still 2007, just that the dinosaurs are still running strong (or at least a few of them are)

Thats a possibility, but I guess I dont really view it as Machiavelli manipulating time, atleast not in the sense that Chronos does or how the codex instructs about the manipulation of time. I think that could be one possible explanation for how Joan and Scatty ended up in the past, but on a different strand of time (if thats what happened), because Machiavelli doesnt fully understand the effect of time travel, or how to control it so Scatty and Joan were sent back in time on a different strand of time as a result. The way i see it understanding time travel is very tough, and a difficult piece of magic to control and understand, so there are lots of possibilities there.

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#343 [url]

Jul 31 09 1:24 PM

What about the possability that the simple fact that Joan and Scatty are back in time could have started a new strand of time in and of itself? The witch said that there are many different possable strands of the future and the actions and decisions made by people dictate which strand comes to be. So when Machiavelli sent them back in time I think it began a brand new strand.

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Aether is the solitary tenant of the Universe, it gives form to matter, but matter also occupies and manipulates Aether. All Physical existence derives its geometry from Aether.
Aura color: BLACK..........Aura Scent: Russian Olive Tree..........Magical Specialty: Alchemy.......... Elemental Magic: Aether/Time

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Godsryche

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#344 [url]

Jul 31 09 1:42 PM

QUOTE (mr_mears @ July 31, 2009 09:24 am)
What about the possability that the simple fact that Joan and Scatty are back in time could have started a new strand of time in and of itself? The witch said that there are many different possable strands of the future and the actions and decisions made by people dictate which strand comes to be. So when Machiavelli sent them back in time I think it began a brand new strand.

I just really don't like the idea of Machiavelli being able to manipulate time that way when it was so adamantly stated that only the Codex and Chronos can.

Sending them to a different strand at the same time though satisfies the logic part of my brain.

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#345 [url]

Jul 31 09 2:01 PM

QUOTE (Godsryche @ July 31, 2009 01:42 pm)
QUOTE (mr_mears @ July 31, 2009 09:24 am)
What about the possability that the simple fact that Joan and Scatty are back in time could have started a new strand of time in and of itself? The witch said that there are many different possable strands of the future and the actions and decisions made by people dictate which strand comes to be. So when Machiavelli sent them back in time I think it began a brand new strand.

I just really don't like the idea of Machiavelli being able to manipulate time that way when it was so adamantly stated that only the Codex and Chronos can.

Sending them to a different strand at the same time though satisfies the logic part of my brain.

I don't think Machiavelli really has a true grasp of Time like we're talking about, I think he just knew how to alter the gates. Just a simple spell.

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Aether is the solitary tenant of the Universe, it gives form to matter, but matter also occupies and manipulates Aether. All Physical existence derives its geometry from Aether.
Aura color: BLACK..........Aura Scent: Russian Olive Tree..........Magical Specialty: Alchemy.......... Elemental Magic: Aether/Time

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Godsryche

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#346 [url]

Jul 31 09 2:07 PM

QUOTE (mr_mears @ July 31, 2009 10:01 am)
QUOTE (Godsryche @ July 31, 2009 01:42 pm)
QUOTE (mr_mears @ July 31, 2009 09:24 am)
What about the possability that the simple fact that Joan and Scatty are back in time could have started a new strand of time in and of itself? The witch said that there are many different possable strands of the future and the actions and decisions made by people dictate which strand comes to be. So when Machiavelli sent them back in time I think it began a brand new strand.

I just really don't like the idea of Machiavelli being able to manipulate time that way when it was so adamantly stated that only the Codex and Chronos can.

Sending them to a different strand at the same time though satisfies the logic part of my brain.

I don't think Machiavelli really has a true grasp of Time like we're talking about, I think he just knew how to alter the gates. Just a simple spell.

Just a "simple spell" that allows the control of time?

Nope. My logic just can't get that. If it was a loophole that big why not just use it all the time?

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#347 [url]

Jul 31 09 3:29 PM

QUOTE (Godsryche @ July 31, 2009 02:07 pm)
QUOTE (mr_mears @ July 31, 2009 10:01 am)
QUOTE (Godsryche @ July 31, 2009 01:42 pm)
QUOTE (mr_mears @ July 31, 2009 09:24 am)
What about the possability that the simple fact that Joan and Scatty are back in time could have started a new strand of time in and of itself? The witch said that there are many different possable strands of the future and the actions and decisions made by people dictate which strand comes to be. So when Machiavelli sent them back in time I think it began a brand new strand.

I just really don't like the idea of Machiavelli being able to manipulate time that way when it was so adamantly stated that only the Codex and Chronos can.

Sending them to a different strand at the same time though satisfies the logic part of my brain.

I don't think Machiavelli really has a true grasp of Time like we're talking about, I think he just knew how to alter the gates. Just a simple spell.

Just a "simple spell" that allows the control of time?

Nope. My logic just can't get that. If it was a loophole that big why not just use it all the time?

Okay, you have me there. "Simple Spell" bad choice of words... you know I'm actually at a loss. How did Mac know how to alter the gate to send Joan and scatty back in time? But Mac has alwyas been full of suprises, maybe it's something his Elder taught him. You know like how Dee's Elder taught him the symbols to keep the Old Spider imprisioned on Alcatraz.

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Aether is the solitary tenant of the Universe, it gives form to matter, but matter also occupies and manipulates Aether. All Physical existence derives its geometry from Aether.
Aura color: BLACK..........Aura Scent: Russian Olive Tree..........Magical Specialty: Alchemy.......... Elemental Magic: Aether/Time

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Michael Scott

Next Generation Elder

Posts: 12,225

#348 [url]

Aug 1 09 12:11 AM

QUOTE (mr_mears @ July 31, 2009 03:29 pm)
QUOTE (Godsryche @ July 31, 2009 02:07 pm)
QUOTE (mr_mears @ July 31, 2009 10:01 am)
QUOTE (Godsryche @ July 31, 2009 01:42 pm)
QUOTE (mr_mears @ July 31, 2009 09:24 am)
What about the possability that the simple fact that Joan and Scatty are back in time could have started a new strand of time in and of itself? The witch said that there are many different possable strands of the future and the actions and decisions made by people dictate which strand comes to be. So when Machiavelli sent them back in time I think it began a brand new strand.

I just really don't like the idea of Machiavelli being able to manipulate time that way when it was so adamantly stated that only the Codex and Chronos can.

Sending them to a different strand at the same time though satisfies the logic part of my brain.

I don't think Machiavelli really has a true grasp of Time like we're talking about, I think he just knew how to alter the gates. Just a simple spell.

Just a "simple spell" that allows the control of time?

Nope. My logic just can't get that. If it was a loophole that big why not just use it all the time?

Okay, you have me there. "Simple Spell" bad choice of words... you know I'm actually at a loss. How did Mac know how to alter the gate to send Joan and scatty back in time? But Mac has alwyas been full of suprises, maybe it's something his Elder taught him. You know like how Dee's Elder taught him the symbols to keep the Old Spider imprisioned on Alcatraz.

Machiavelli cannot control time. He used a "spell of attraction" on the stone in Paris, which pulled Scathach and Joan into the past.

However, we know that time can be controlled; Scathach previously went back in time and then returned to her own time when she fought the Disir. That is control.

Michael

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#349 [url]

Aug 1 09 5:07 AM

QUOTE (Michael Scott @ August 01, 2009 12:11 am)
QUOTE (mr_mears @ July 31, 2009 03:29 pm)
QUOTE (Godsryche @ July 31, 2009 02:07 pm)
QUOTE (mr_mears @ July 31, 2009 10:01 am)
QUOTE (Godsryche @ July 31, 2009 01:42 pm)
QUOTE (mr_mears @ July 31, 2009 09:24 am)
What about the possability that the simple fact that Joan and Scatty are back in time could have started a new strand of time in and of itself? The witch said that there are many different possable strands of the future and the actions and decisions made by people dictate which strand comes to be. So when Machiavelli sent them back in time I think it began a brand new strand.

I just really don't like the idea of Machiavelli being able to manipulate time that way when it was so adamantly stated that only the Codex and Chronos can.

Sending them to a different strand at the same time though satisfies the logic part of my brain.

I don't think Machiavelli really has a true grasp of Time like we're talking about, I think he just knew how to alter the gates. Just a simple spell.

Just a "simple spell" that allows the control of time?

Nope. My logic just can't get that. If it was a loophole that big why not just use it all the time?

Okay, you have me there. "Simple Spell" bad choice of words... you know I'm actually at a loss. How did Mac know how to alter the gate to send Joan and scatty back in time? But Mac has alwyas been full of suprises, maybe it's something his Elder taught him. You know like how Dee's Elder taught him the symbols to keep the Old Spider imprisioned on Alcatraz.

Machiavelli cannot control time. He used a "spell of attraction" on the stone in Paris, which pulled Scathach and Joan into the past.

However, we know that time can be controlled; Scathach previously went back in time and then returned to her own time when she fought the Disir. That is control.

Michael

So I was right in my first instinct of "Simple Spell" perhaps?

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Aether is the solitary tenant of the Universe, it gives form to matter, but matter also occupies and manipulates Aether. All Physical existence derives its geometry from Aether.
Aura color: BLACK..........Aura Scent: Russian Olive Tree..........Magical Specialty: Alchemy.......... Elemental Magic: Aether/Time

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#350 [url]

Aug 22 09 5:53 PM

ok there is someting that isnt right her in the first book it is that the fifth element is time so how is it that in the fifth book it says its aether??

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#351 [url]

Aug 22 09 9:35 PM

QUOTE (flameoftheflamels @ August 22, 2009 05:53 pm)
ok there is someting that isnt right her in the first book it is that the fifth element is time so how is it that in the fifth book it says its aether??

You can look in the "aether" thread, there's been a lot of discussion about that. I'm sure you'll have a lot to add to the discussion

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Fuzzbinn

Sorcerer

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#353 [url]

Aug 23 09 4:39 PM

QUOTE (flameoftheflamels @ August 23, 2009 04:20 pm)
ohh and the morrigen can she have the fifth element because she put her two sisters inside her?? flamelssecret/idk.gif

The Morrigans sisters were always together from what i understood, rotating control over the course of a year. The morrigan imprisoned her two sisters and took full command using a necromancy spell learned from Roger Bacon, Dee's predicesor.

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#354 [url]

Aug 24 09 6:52 AM

From what I understand there is a bit of a discrepancy on how many forms the Crow Goddess actually takes. In the Alchemyst Dee, Bastet, and The Morrigan have a conversation about the fact that the Morrigan could Awaken Josh because she has the power of the three sisters. In that passage the three of them clearly talk of the Crow sisters as seperate. Yet in the Sorceress when Macha and Badb talk to Perry they tell her that they always share the same body and that they interchange who is controlling the body based on the season. I'm not sure that we know the answer to this 100%.

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#355 [url]

Sep 10 09 1:06 PM

Hey, maybe there's only ultimately supposed to be ONE "twin"? According to the prophecy : The Immortal must train the mortal" not mortalS.

And i strongly think that John Dee knows something, like at the end of the book, he combines the swords and mumbles : "The two that are one, the one that is all."

What if the twins are not the 2? Maybe the swords are? And to save or destroy the world you would need the 2 swords of power? Excalibur and Clarent?

So if you only need one, Josh or Sophie, one's meant to destroy the world with the Sword and one's meant to save the world with the Sword, i think Dee probably knows a lot more about it than any of them, that's why he's so bent on getting the 2 swords...


Just a Thought.

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Godsryche

Next Generation Elder

Posts: 13,852

#356 [url]

Sep 10 09 1:10 PM

QUOTE (bryan33192 @ September 10, 2009 09:06 am)
Hey, maybe there's only ultimately supposed to be ONE "twin"? According to the prophecy : The Immortal must train the mortal" not mortalS.

And i strongly think that John Dee knows something, like at the end of the book, he combines the swords and mumbles : "The two that are one, the one that is all."

What if the twins are not the 2? Maybe the swords are? And to save or destroy the world you would need the 2 swords of power? Excalibur and Clarent?

So if you only need one, Josh or Sophie, one's meant to destroy the world with the Sword and one's meant to save the world with the Sword, i think Dee probably knows a lot more about it than any of them, that's why he's so bent on getting the 2 swords...


Just a Thought.

Gilgamesh is the one that said "The Two That Are One"

And there has been extensive talk on the swords throughout the forum. Give it a read through and I'm sure you'll find some things very interesting!

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#357 [url]

Sep 11 09 1:40 AM

QUOTE (bryan33192 @ September 10, 2009 01:06 pm)
Hey, maybe there's only ultimately supposed to be ONE "twin"? According to the prophecy : The Immortal must train the mortal" not mortalS.

And i strongly think that John Dee knows something, like at the end of the book, he combines the swords and mumbles : "The two that are one, the one that is all."

What if the twins are not the 2? Maybe the swords are? And to save or destroy the world you would need the 2 swords of power? Excalibur and Clarent?

So if you only need one, Josh or Sophie, one's meant to destroy the world with the Sword and one's meant to save the world with the Sword, i think Dee probably knows a lot more about it than any of them, that's why he's so bent on getting the 2 swords...


Just a Thought.

Well Dee isn't the one that says "The Two that are one..." that's Gilgamesh. But I think that Dee might know something about it though so you could be right. And now we all have to wonder, who has the legendary twins? Nicholas or Dee? Or both?...
That could be the reason Dee wanted the swords so much.

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#358 [url]

Sep 11 09 12:58 PM

I think Dee was looking for both swords because of the power one could have by possesing them both. I think Gilgamesh's revelation about the swords was just as much a suprise to Dee as it was to us.

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Aether is the solitary tenant of the Universe, it gives form to matter, but matter also occupies and manipulates Aether. All Physical existence derives its geometry from Aether.
Aura color: BLACK..........Aura Scent: Russian Olive Tree..........Magical Specialty: Alchemy.......... Elemental Magic: Aether/Time

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#359 [url]

Sep 11 09 5:24 PM

QUOTE (mr_mears @ September 11, 2009 06:58 am)
I think Dee was looking for both swords because of the power one could have by possesing them both. I think Gilgamesh's revelation about the swords was just as much a suprise to Dee as it was to us.

I agree with you on both comments here.

We know Dee is a collector of "treasures" and he has been obsessed with possessing all of the swords for quite some time.

I remember when I read the revelation by Gilgamesh...this was my face... flamelssecret/jawdrop.gif

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Godsryche

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#360 [url]

Sep 11 09 5:42 PM

Ok, I'm going to take the road less traveled on this one.

When I read the bit about the swords, this is exactly what I thought -

It was as metaphor relating to the twins, as in Gilgamesh is foreshadowing what will "metaphorically" happen to the twins of legend in a future book. As in the twins will "merge" in much the same way as the swords did.

Basically, the swords merging has nothing to do with the prophecy, it was just the mutterings of a mad old man that went "hey, look at that, just like what will happen to twins" only it came out as the line from the prophecy.

In other words, the swords are just a red herring and have nothing to do with the prophecy at all.

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