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#21 [url]

Jul 6 10 3:24 AM

Since I read about her there's been something that had me thinking: Ethereal, all the Elders had shown a solid body, so this fragment of her description create two questions in my mind:

- All Great Elders are ethereal?

- If she some kind of ghost?

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#23 [url]

Jul 7 10 3:59 PM

She probably gave him immortality because of personal qualities that she probably values. That seems to be one of the traits that draws an Elder and humani together, though that's not always the case.

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#24 [url]

Jul 10 10 3:09 PM

QUOTE (Alchemyst11 @ June 11, 2010 01:49 am)
There's just one thing I don't understand- why would a Great Elder be tiny?

It's not the size of the bear in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the bear.

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#25 [url]

Jul 20 10 4:14 AM

QUOTE (budgge @ June 11, 2010 08:57 pm)
Or, maybe thats how he became immortal. He was going to do that, and Benzaiten saw potential?

Well really, no human becomes immortal by an Elder if he doesn't show potential.


OK, anyways, Benzaiten: god of things that flow, right? From wiki:
"Her Sanskrit name is "Sarasvatî Devî", which means "Goddess Saraswati", and so Benzaiten is the goddess of everything that flows: water, words (and knowledge, by extension), speech, eloquence, and music. The characters used initially to write her name, read "Biancaitian" in Chinese and "Bensaiten" in Japanese (辯才天), reflected her role as the goddess of eloquence. Because the Sutra of Golden Light promised protection of the state, in Japan she became a protector-deity, at first of the state and then of people. Lastly, she became one of the Seven Gods of Fortune, and the Sino-Japanese characters used to write her name changed to 弁財天 (Benzaiten), which reflects her role in bestowing monetary fortune. Sometimes she is called Benten, although this name refers to the goddess Lakshmi.

In the Rig-Veda (6.61.7) Sarasvati is credited with killing the three-headed Vritra, also known as Ahi ("snake"). This is probably one of the sources of Sarasvati/Benzaiten's close association with snakes and dragons in Japan. She is enshrined on the Island of Enoshima in Sagami Bay, about 50 kilometers south of Tokyo, and numerous other locations throughout Japan; and she and a five-headed dragon are the central figures of the Enoshima Engi, a history of the shrines on Enoshima written by the Japanese Buddhist monk Kōkei (皇慶) in AD 1047. According to Kōkei, Benzaiten is the third daughter of the dragon-king of Munetsuchi (無熱池; literally "lake without heat"), known in Sanskrit as Anavatapta, the lake lying at the center of the world according to an ancient Buddhist cosmological view.

Benzaiten has been syncretized with some Shinto goddesses and for this reason she is sometimes portrayed with a torii on her head."

I'm so excited! Saraswati is from my religion! I never knew she transferred through Chinese and Japanese mythology! Anyway, getting back on topic...

Anyone know who the snake is? Also, looks like we know that she is the god of dragons and snakes, water, knowledge, and all the other things said above. I'm so tired right now...

@ Athena: Nice metaphor, but it confused me at first. I though you were saying its not the size of the bear in the fight, but the size of the fight that the bear is in... that made no sense so I reread it...

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#26 [url]

Jul 20 10 8:17 AM

@AlchemistMaster : Being the Goddess of things that flows (as mohanbharath said ) she might be a bit fade or her colors aren't that solid ....

@Abraham II : In a thread Michael said that he had planed the whole book series for a decade ! i think he is now beyond inspiration

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#28 [url]

Jul 25 10 3:53 PM

LOL, ikr? flamelssecret/hysterical.gif

Does it say anywhere in the books why did she gave immortality to Niten?

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#30 [url]

Aug 6 10 11:32 AM

I have not yet finished the Necromancer at this stage but i believe that Nietens mast might be Aphrodite, because it is said (not in the book) that Aphrodite takes the form of what you believe would be the most beautiful woman on earth, she appears as what you individually love. And she was on a pink dragon with a fan, which sounds SOOOO like Aphrodite. Also they said that she might be a great Elder, and one of the stories on Aphrodite said that she was born out of the sea when Ouranos was destroyed in the time of the war on the Titans or Great Elders. ( None of this is in the book, im just putting my knowledge of Greek mythology to the test, this is probably wrong because she is probably a Chinese Elder. And also, it said in the book that he sliced the arrow that was heading straight for her, so that might have played a part in giving him immortality because he might have saved her

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#31 [url]

Aug 9 10 7:30 PM

QUOTE (Excalibur46 @ August 06, 2010 04:32 am)
I have not yet finished the Necromancer at this stage but i believe that Nietens mast might be Aphrodite, because it is said (not in the book) that Aphrodite takes the form of what you believe would be the most beautiful woman on earth, she appears as what you individually love. And she was on a pink dragon with a fan, which sounds SOOOO like Aphrodite. Also they said that she might be a great Elder, and one of the stories on Aphrodite said that she was born out of the sea when Ouranos was destroyed in the time of the war on the Titans or Great Elders. ( None of this is in the book, im just putting my knowledge of Greek mythology to the test, this is probably wrong because she is probably a Chinese Elder. And also, it said in the book that he sliced the arrow that was heading straight for her, so that might have played a part in giving him immortality because he might have saved her

I don't mean to completely rip apart your theory to look for the smallest cracks or anything, but Ouranos (I prefer Oranos, so that's what I'm going to use from now on) was never "destroyed". He was simply banished when Kronos(Cronos? Chronos?) defeated him with the scythe that Gaea/Gaia gave him.

By the way, where is it stated that Kronos and Chronos/Cronos/Cronus are different people? I never understood...

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Elena

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#32 [url]

Aug 9 10 9:19 PM

To answer your question..

Kronos (Cronos/Cronus), a son of Uranus and Gaia, and the youngest among the Titans. He was married to Rhea, and together they had many of the major 12 gods of Olympus. In fear of a prophecy that he would be in turn be overthrown by his own son, Kronos swallowed each of his children as soon as they were born. Rhea managed to save the youngest, Zeus, who then later went against his father(like his father did before him with Zeus's grandfather, Uranus) and with the help of his mother managed to release all his brothers and sisters

Chronos (Khronos or Chronus) was the Protogenos (primeval god) of time, a divinity who emerged self-formed at the beginning of creation in the Orphic cosmogonies. Basically, he was Time personified. His name (chronos) means TIME in Greek.

They were two 'different' deities/creatures except in the Orphic Theogonies were Chronos was a cosmological doubling of the Titan Kronos (also "Father Time").

But now let's get back on the Benzaiten-talk.

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#33 [url]

Aug 15 10 1:57 AM

Our no Necromancer spoiler poilcy has now been lifted, posts after this one may contain spoilers, read on at your own risk if you have not yet read The Necromancer.

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#34 [url]

Aug 16 10 9:25 PM

Actually, the protogenoi is usually called Aion.

The Greeks had two theories for the creation of the world, one had the titan, and one had the protogenoi.
Later, they mixed the two ideas. Realizing that two of the gods had the same name, they changed the protogenoi Kronos' name.

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#35 [url]

Aug 16 10 10:36 PM

QUOTE (Archon14 @ August 17, 2010 12:25 am)
Actually, the protogenoi is usually called Aion.

The Greeks had two theories for the creation of the world, one had the titan, and one had the protogenoi.
Later, they mixed the two ideas. Realizing that two of the gods had the same name, they changed the protogenoi Kronos' name.

Aion is another name for Chronos..it means century in greek.. believe me I'm sure. I'm Greek after all.

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#36 [url]

Aug 16 10 11:20 PM

Me too!

Anyway, I think the Kronos in the books is the titan. It mentions that he isn't a very nice guy.

The Protogenoi isn't that well known, and there's just one myth about him, so we don't know his personality or anything.

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#37 [url]

Aug 19 10 4:35 PM

QUOTE (Archon14 @ August 16, 2010 04:20 pm)
Me too!

Anyway, I think the Kronos in the books is the titan. It mentions that he isn't a very nice guy.

The Protogenoi isn't that well known, and there's just one myth about him, so we don't know his personality or anything.

Can you point me toward that myth? I've read huge amounts of Greek mythology without rest (they used to be my favorite before the Egyptians; no offense!), but I don't remember reading about any protogenoi. I don't even remember that title!

Getting back on topic... Despite the fact that Athena is the the goddess of knowledge, we have not yet even heard her mentioned! Could this be because Athena and Benzaiten are one? Athena was the step-sister of Mars... Then since she is a Great Elder, her father (Zeus) must be one as well... Brainwave for Dee's Elder! I'll be back!

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#38 [url]

Oct 11 10 1:35 AM

Protogenoi means "first born" in greek. They were the original gods, like Gaia, Oranos, Pontos, Tartaros, etc...

They were gods and parts of the physical world at the same time (I know, it's confusing )

Take Gaia, for example. She was the physical earth and the goddess of the earth at the same time.

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#39 [url]

Oct 11 10 10:58 AM

Back to the topic... i'm pretty sure Benzaiten cannot be equated with a major western goddess. based on my research, the worship of Benzaiten originated from India and she is goddess of many things (rivers, music, arts, literature, luck, money among others). the closest goddess which can be referred to her from Greek myths are the muses, though they are individual entities.

QUOTE (Sca_thach_Fan @ July 25, 2010 03:55 pm)
I don't think so, unless I missed something the fist 8 times I checked...  well. who's up for a ninth?  flamelssecret/read.gif

hmm... that gave me an idea: does it say in the Necromancer whether Niten wrote The Book of Five Rings prior or after he was given immortality?

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#40 [url]

Nov 22 10 8:16 PM

Benzaiten is a japanese Hindugoddess, so we have a character from the Hinduism.
But whats about he Shinto religion. We have the Creator god Izanagi and the Underworld goddess Izanami, the wife or Izanagi. We also have the most importent goddes of the Shinto Amaterasu and her brothers Tsukuyomi and Susano.
I mean, Niten stay by sophie and they seach an earth-magic teacher and it could be possible that they meet Shinto gods like Amaterasu.

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