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Aug 26 09 7:19 PM

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I loved the mention of Star Wars in the book, but other than that, I didn't pay much attention to the playlist. So... Star Wars may have some subtle bearing in the series? Maybe it's an indirect reference to Luke Skywalker and his twin sister Leia. Sophie and Josh; Luke and Leia. Both sets of twins are in conflict with a ruthless enemy too. Thoughts?

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Moviebuff

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Aug 27 09 3:32 AM

QUOTE (Indigo Spirit @ August 26, 2009 07:19 pm)
I loved the mention of Star Wars in the book, but other than that, I didn't pay much attention to the playlist. So... Star Wars may have some subtle bearing in the series? Maybe it's an indirect reference to Luke Skywalker and his twin sister Leia. Sophie and Josh; Luke and Leia. Both sets of twins are in conflict with a ruthless enemy too. Thoughts?

Me too, I did dwell to much into it because Star Wars and El Cid (though I know of it) didn't put it together for me. now that the twin connection is mentioned though, i can see how it fits together and they, but more of Luke, ended up saving the galaxy from the Sith Lords.

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Aug 27 09 5:52 AM

I don't know. For me the connection lies in the "dark side of the force". We've got the Dark Elders trying to reclaim the Earth. I may be oversimplifying it, but for me that is the Star Wars connection because there aren't supposed to be fictional characters besides the Newman twins in this series. It would be very shocking if Jar Jar Binks showed up as the Necromancer! But actually when I refrenced the playlist Germain was making I left out the part where it says the first Star Wars movie only, so this series wouldn't apply to the whole range of Star Wars movies (not that you guys were doing that ).

But Indigo you are so quick! I can't believe you made another twin connection so fast. That would be just like Mr. Scott to throw in yet another set of twins nobody saw coming!

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Michael Scott

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Aug 27 09 9:34 AM

And since Star Wars has raised its head, maybe I should drop this in here (Zephfire, if it is not the right category, would you move it for me please.) The original Star Wars (movies 4-6), were written referencing the great Joseph Campbell as an influence.

Indeed, later in his life, Joseph Campbell went to Skywalker Ranch to record his series, The Power of Myth. One of Campbell's great works is The Hero's Journey, and for anyone interested in myth and legend it is essential reading.

A little research into the "steps" of the Hero's Journey might be interesting...

Michael

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Aug 30 09 4:40 PM

QUOTE (Michael Scott @ August 27, 2009 04:34 am)
And since Star Wars has raised its head, maybe I should drop this in here (Zephfire, if it is not the right category, would you move it for me please.)  The original Star Wars (movies 4-6), were written referencing the great Joseph Campbell as an influence. 

Indeed, later in his life, Joseph Campbell went to Skywalker Ranch to record his series, The Power of Myth.  One of Campbell's great works is The Hero's Journey, and for anyone interested in myth and legend it is essential reading.

A little research into the "steps" of the Hero's Journey might be interesting...

Michael

i have found some things about the steps of a hero's journey at this site: **Unverified link, removed by Admin, please submit link via PM for verifying**

The three main levels are:
Departure
Initiation
Return

Departure:
The Call to Adventure- being called to do the journey
Refusal of the Call- refusing to go on the adventure
Supernatural Aid- once the person has committed to the quest their helper appears
The Crossing of the First Threshold- actually entering the journey
The Belly of the Whale-The belly of the whale represents the final separation from the hero's known world and self

Initiation:
The Road of Trials
The road of trials is a series of tests, tasks, or ordeals that the person must undergo to begin the transformation. Often the person fails one or more of these tests, which often occur in threes.
The Meeting with the Goddess
The meeting with the goddess represents the point in the adventure when the person experiences a love that has the power and significance of the all-powerful, all encompassing, unconditional love that a fortunate infant may experience with his or her mother.
Woman as the Temptress
At one level, this step is about those temptations that may lead the hero to abandon or stray from his or her quest.
Atonement with the Father
In this step the person must confront and be initiated by whatever holds the ultimate power in his or her life.
Apotheosis
To apotheosize is to deify. When someone dies a physical death, or dies to the self to live in spirit, he or she moves beyond the pairs of opposites to a state of divine knowledge, love, compassion and bliss.
The Ultimate Boon
The ultimate boon is the achievement of the goal of the quest. It is what the person went on the journey to get.

Return:
Refusal of the Return
So why, when all has been achieved, the ambrosia has been drunk, and we have conversed with the gods, why come back to normal life with all its cares and woes?
The Magic Flight
Sometimes the hero must escape with the boon, if it is something that the gods have been jealously guarding.
Rescue from Without
Just as the hero may need guides and assistants to set out on the quest, often times he or she must have powerful guides and rescuers to bring them back to everyday life, especially if the person has been wounded or weakened by the experience.
The Crossing of the Return Threshold
The trick in returning is to retain the wisdom gained on the quest, to integrate that wisdom into a human life, and then maybe figure out how to share the wisdom with the rest of the world. This is usually extremely difficult.
Master of the Two Worlds
In myth, this step is usually represented by a transcendental hero like Jesus or Buddha. For a human hero, it may mean achieving a balance between the material and spiritual. The person has become comfortable and competent in both the inner and outer worlds.
Freedom to Live
Mastery leads to freedom from the fear of death, which in turn is the freedom to live. This is sometimes referred to as living in the moment, neither anticipating the future nor regretting the past.

I think it's interesting how some of these things are synonomous with events in the story line it also mentions campbell

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Zephfire

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Aug 31 09 9:17 AM

As you can see i've split the discussion to create this new thread, so here's the thread for those of you wishing to follow the Star Wars/ Hero's Journey side discussion, fire away!

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Sep 1 09 2:53 AM

Can we bring Spacey's El Cid info and the entire play list topic over here? It might be nice if we could talk about all of it under one category, yes? Plus I think Moviebuff mentioned that he might know something about El Cid. Have we met any Gladiators yet that I have forgotten about?

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Sep 1 09 2:56 AM

QUOTE (Zephfire @ August 31, 2009 04:17 am)
As you can see i've split the discussion to create this new thread, so here's the thread for those of you wishing to follow the Star Wars/ Hero's Journey side discussion, fire away!

thanks so much zeph

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Sep 1 09 3:44 AM

QUOTE (Zephfire @ August 31, 2009 09:17 am)
As you can see i've split the discussion to create this new thread, so here's the thread for those of you wishing to follow the Star Wars/ Hero's Journey side discussion, fire away!

Thank you Zeph, it did get a bit cofusing there! flamelssecret/love0030.gif

QUOTE (Lucy @ September 01, 2009 02:53 am)
Plus I think Moviebuff mentioned that he might know something about El Cid.

oops! i guess this was taken out of context. I meant, I know of El Cid, but nothing to connect him to the series. sorry.

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Sep 2 09 6:03 PM

The first title Saint-Germain talk about in his playlist is the soundtrack to Gladiators. There was a quote about Machiavelli's Elders and Gladiators I thought I'd bring up though I don't know if this is a better fit under the Machiavelli thread.

So this is Machiavelli talking to his Elder on the phone.

The Sorceress P. 348

QUOTE
"There was a long silence on the other end of the line.  The Italian heard ghostly snatchets of song, like the sounds of a distant radio.  But the song was a Spartan marching ballad."


So there is at least a hint of Gladiators.

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Godsryche

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Sep 2 09 6:17 PM

QUOTE (Lucy @ September 02, 2009 02:03 pm)
The first title Saint-Germain talk about in his playlist is the soundtrack to Gladiators. There was a quote about Machiavelli's Elders and Gladiators I thought I'd bring up though I don't know if this is a better fit under the Machiavelli thread.

So this is Machiavelli talking to his Elder on the phone.

The Sorceress P. 348
QUOTE
"There was a long silence on the other end of the line.  The Italian heard ghostly snatchets of song, like the sounds of a distant radio.  But the song was a Spartan marching ballad."


So there is at least a hint of Gladiators.

hmmm...that is interesting.

The only thing I can see with it is that "Spartans" were not "Gladiators"

the Spartans were Greeks from Sparta that were legendary warriors.

The Gladiators were slaves that Romans liked to watch kill each other and get eaten by lions.

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Sep 6 09 5:51 AM

Hmm, well that's a pretty big hole in my theory! But it does relate a little...But certainly the Crow and The Rock are big components in the story, so probably The Gladiator will have to tie in a little stronger than my weak theory. I have been looking over the steps in the hero's journey listed above by auraofgreen, but I was wondering who these steps apply to. Is Nicholas our hero? Is it Josh or Sophie? Or do we have a collective hero and these steps will happen to several of our characters like they are all parts of one big "hero" we will watch on the journey?

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Michael Scott

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Sep 6 09 11:48 AM

QUOTE (Godsryche @ September 02, 2009 06:17 pm)
QUOTE (Lucy @ September 02, 2009 02:03 pm)
The first title Saint-Germain talk about in his playlist is the soundtrack to Gladiators.  There was a quote about Machiavelli's Elders and Gladiators I thought I'd bring up though I don't know if this is a better fit under the Machiavelli thread.

So this is Machiavelli talking to his Elder on the phone.

The Sorceress P. 348
QUOTE
"There was a long silence on the other end of the line.  The Italian heard ghostly snatchets of song, like the sounds of a distant radio.  But the song was a Spartan marching ballad."


So there is at least a hint of Gladiators.

hmmm...that is interesting.

The only thing I can see with it is that "Spartans" were not "Gladiators"

the Spartans were Greeks from Sparta that were legendary warriors.

The Gladiators were slaves that Romans liked to watch kill each other and get eaten by lions.
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Godsryche

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Sep 10 09 1:28 PM

QUOTE (Michael Scott @ September 06, 2009 07:48 am)

Ah, but Sparta gives you the 300, which gives you Leonidas and Xerxes.

Michael

But that's still different from Gladiators, no?

Sparta also has links to Agamemnon and Achilles with, that little argument, the Trojan War.



(PS - Gerard Butler will forever be knows for "THIS IS SPARTA!". it's like this generations version of "I'll Be Back")

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Sep 10 09 1:46 PM

QUOTE (Godsryche @ September 10, 2009 01:28 pm)
QUOTE (Michael Scott @ September 06, 2009 07:48 am)

Ah, but Sparta gives you the 300, which gives you Leonidas and Xerxes.

Michael

But that's still different from Gladiators, no?

Sparta also has links to Agamemnon and Achilles with, that little argument, the Trojan War.



(PS - Gerard Butler will forever be knows for "THIS IS SPARTA!". it's like this generations version of "I'll Be Back")

AGREED!! Sometimes I Sparta Death Pit kick my office chair and scream THIS IS THE BATCH PLANT!!!... flamelssecret/hysterical.gif

Well it's probably only funny to me,

But back on track; I could see Xerxes as a Dark Elder... Historically he was a brutal mad man calling himself a god king...

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Godsryche

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Sep 10 09 1:54 PM

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Yeah I could see Xerxes being a Dark Elder too.

But I still think the Spartan link would be better suited to the Trojan War, a little less obscure.

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Sep 12 09 4:49 AM

flamelssecret/hysterical.gif They should make all caution wet floor signs like that!

So this doesn't exactly pertain to the steps in A Hero's Journey, but I came across an interesting line in it that made me think:

"In the Greek world the emergence of a being out of the water is a constant theme, the boy who riding the dolphin who establishes Delphi, for example. It's the emergence of life out of the sea into the world of solid circumstances. Then the end of the world, the end of a cycle of time, ends in water. That's the flood motif, which appears in all mythologies-all the cyclic mythologies-of the end of time."

I think it is interesting that we know that Danu Talis was raised from the sea bed by the great elders, a new begining, and then Danu Talis sank with the end of the time of the Elder Generation. Gilgamesh has already made reference to the World nearly being flooded, as well as Dora mentioning that the world has ended many times before and it would yet again before the sun turns black. Maybe Gilgamesh was right about water and we should look out for what the twins can do with it.

Plus there was what Machiavelli said about magic being ineffective over running water.
Maybe water is the most powerful of the 4 elemental magics.

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Feb 16 10 9:20 PM

Ok totally stupid reference and probably has nothing to do with the overall topic here but just to throw out another Star Wars reference (if perhaps unintentional and very subtle), it is funny that there are 2 mini-trilogies in Star Wars and there are 2 as well in the Flamel series.

Oh and wouldn't Xerxes fit more as an immortal as opposed to an Elder given that he was a real person?

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Feb 17 10 2:10 AM

QUOTE (phineasnigellus @ February 16, 2010 09:20 pm)
Ok totally stupid reference and probably has nothing to do with the overall topic here but just to throw out another Star Wars reference (if perhaps unintentional and very subtle), it is funny that there are 2 mini-trilogies in Star Wars and there are 2 as well in the Flamel series.

Oh and wouldn't Xerxes fit more as an immortal as opposed to an Elder given that he was a real person?

Please don't get me started on Star Wars, I don't want to show everyone how big of a nerd I am. flamelssecret/read.gif

Well Xerxes did say he was a god, and was disproven, but you never know.


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Godsryche

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Feb 17 10 1:02 PM

QUOTE (TheConduit @ February 16, 2010 10:10 pm)
QUOTE (phineasnigellus @ February 16, 2010 09:20 pm)
Ok totally stupid reference and probably has nothing to do with the overall topic here but just to throw out another Star Wars reference (if perhaps unintentional and very subtle), it is funny that there are 2 mini-trilogies in Star Wars and there are 2 as well in the Flamel series.

Oh and wouldn't Xerxes fit more as an immortal as opposed to an Elder given that he was a real person?

Please don't get me started on Star Wars, I don't want to show everyone how big of a nerd I am. flamelssecret/read.gif

Well Xerxes did say he was a god, and was disproven, but you never know.

well, he was only disproved because he bled...who's to say Elders don't bleed? Even Scatty said she's immortal not invincible.

But I still say if the Spartan music was any indication of something, I would say the Trojan War and Achilles over Xerxes.

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Feb 17 10 4:10 PM

QUOTE (Godsryche @ February 17, 2010 01:02 pm)
QUOTE (TheConduit @ February 16, 2010 10:10 pm)
QUOTE (phineasnigellus @ February 16, 2010 09:20 pm)
Ok totally stupid reference and probably has nothing to do with the overall topic here but just to throw out another Star Wars reference (if perhaps unintentional and very subtle), it is funny that there are 2 mini-trilogies in Star Wars and there are 2 as well in the Flamel series.

Oh and wouldn't Xerxes fit more as an immortal as opposed to an Elder given that he was a real person?

Please don't get me started on Star Wars, I don't want to show everyone how big of a nerd I am. flamelssecret/read.gif

Well Xerxes did say he was a god, and was disproven, but you never know.

well, he was only disproved because he bled...who's to say Elders don't bleed? Even Scatty said she's immortal not invincible.

But I still say if the Spartan music was any indication of something, I would say the Trojan War and Achilles over Xerxes.

Did not think of that, you are correct sir definitely sir


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I've known Nicholas Flamel for a very long time. He is many things-Dangerous and devious, cunning and deadly, a good friend and an implacable enemy-but he comes from an age when a man's word was indeed precious. If he gives you his word that he's done all this for your protection, then I am suggesting that you believe him. ~ Scathach

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