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Zephfire

Next Generation Elder

Posts: 18,045

#41 [url]

Dec 1 08 1:32 PM

QUOTE (Blazing star @ November 28, 2008 10:13 pm)
QUOTE (Vinterulv @ November 28, 2008 07:54 pm)
The difference between magician and necromancer is a magician learns spells and to manipulate stuff like both Dee and Machiavelli. A necromancer raises the dead.

Thanks for clearing that up!

Necromancers don't just raise the dead, they can also talk to them, just as Dee does to the recently departed Hekate in The Alchemyst.

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dreamingofedward

Next Generation Elder

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#42 [url]

Dec 1 08 4:15 PM

QUOTE (Vinterulv @ November 29, 2008 08:30 pm)
I think you are right. I also think Dee has something more ancient then the codex but not more powerful.

I am not sure he has something more powerful - but I do think the identity of his Elder is key. I think his Elder is the one with the knowledge that Dee has been using - and where he learned the symbols for the spear.

QUOTE (The Magician)
The flat metal head of each spear was painted with an ancient symbol of power, a square hieroglyph that would have been familiar to the ancient Maya peoples of Central America.... Perenelle recognized some of the symbols on the spearheads; she had seen them in the Codex and etched onto the walls of the ruins at Palenque in Mexico. Most of them predated mankind; many of them were even older than the Elders and belonged to the race that had inhabited the earth in the far-distant past. They were the Words of Power, the ancient Symbols of Binding, designed to protect or trap something either incredibly valuable or extraordinarily dangerous.


So some of the symbols were available in the codex - but not the way to arrange them.

QUOTE (The Magician)
No, Areop-Enap said. The individual words are powerful, it is true, but Dee set them up in the particular pattern that kept me trapped in the cell. Every time I tried to escape, it was as if I ran into a solid wall. I ve seen that pattern before, but it was in the days before the Fall of Danu Talis. In fact, now that I think of it, the last time I saw that pattern was before we had even created the island continent and dragged it up from the ocean floor. Someone instructed Dee; someone knew how to create these magical Wards, someone who'd seen them. No one knows who Dee s Elder is, whom he serves, Perenelle said thoughtfully. Nicholas spent decades vainly trying to discover who, ultimately, controls the Magician. Someone old, Areop-Enap said. As old as me, or even older. One of the Great Elders, perhaps. All of the spider Elder s eyes blinked. But it cannot be; none of them survived the Fall of Danu Talis.


I think this information sets us up for the fact that Dee's elder is the key - and must be someone extraordinary. I take that last sentence of aerop-enap to be important - I think we will discover that someone did in fact survive the Fall of Danu Talis.

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hitmanjls

Next Generation Elder

Posts: 13,272

#43 [url]

Dec 1 08 4:53 PM

My money right now is on Echidna being Dee's Dark Elder.

QUOTE (The Alchemyst Chapter 34)
This was not one of Dee s creations. The sphinx was one of the daughters of Echidna, one of the foulest of the Elders, shunned and feared even by her own race, even the Dark Elders. Perenelle suddenly found herself wondering who, exactly, Dee was serving.

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#44 [url]

Dec 1 08 6:11 PM

QUOTE (hitmanjls @ December 01, 2008 10:53 am)
My money right now is on Echidna being Dee's Dark Elder.

QUOTE (The Alchemyst Chapter 34)
This was not one of Dee s creations. The sphinx was one of the daughters of Echidna, one of the foulest of the Elders, shunned and feared even by her own race, even the Dark Elders. Perenelle suddenly found herself wondering who, exactly, Dee was serving.

I just looked her up in Wikipedia and she sounds NASTY!!!!! Just the perfect monster to be Dee's Elder. I think you are on to something there Hitman!!! flamelssecret/clap3.gif

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Spacecadet

Next Generation Elder

Posts: 17,429

#45 [url]

Dec 1 08 6:21 PM

Ok i found this interesting, when looking up Echidna on wikipedia i found the following

QUOTE (wikipedia)
the goddess was nasty who is half a nymph with glancing eyes and fair cheeks, and half again a huge snake, terrible smelling, with greasy skin, eating raw flesh beneath the secret parts of the holy earth. And there she has a cave deep down under a hollow rock far from the deathless gods and mortal men. There, then, did the gods appoint her a glorious house to dwell in: and she keeps guard in Arima beneath the earth, grim Echidna, a nymph who dies not nor grows old all her days. —— (Theogony, 295-305)


This character is a flesh eater. Im wondering if there could be a possible link between Echidna and the flesh eaters in the first chapter of the sorceress.

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hitmanjls

Next Generation Elder

Posts: 13,272

#46 [url]

Dec 1 08 6:40 PM

QUOTE (The Magician)
As old as me, or even older. One of the Great Elders, perhaps. All of the spider Elder s eyes blinked. But it cannot be; none of them survived the Fall of Danu Talis.


And if she was "shunned and feared by even her own race", maybe she wasn't even at Danu Talis when it fell... She may have been exiled like Hekate.

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dreamingofedward

Next Generation Elder

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#47 [url]

Dec 1 08 6:46 PM

QUOTE (hitmanjls @ December 01, 2008 01:40 pm)
QUOTE (The Magician)
As old as me, or even older. One of the Great Elders, perhaps. All of the spider Elder s eyes blinked. But it cannot be; none of them survived the Fall of Danu Talis.


And if she was "shunned and feared by even her own race", maybe she wasn't even at Danu Talis when it fell... She may have been exiled like Hekate.

I like that theory!

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#48 [url]

Dec 2 08 1:33 AM

What if Dee does not have an elder? What if he just has a super powerful being the same species that Abraham was and this person is the one that gave him immortality?

The only time Dee's elder is really mentioned is by Machiavelli and Flamel.

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Spacecadet

Next Generation Elder

Posts: 17,429

#50 [url]

Dec 3 08 5:56 PM

I found the following quote in the magician

QUOTE
The prophecy is almost fulfilled, Dee continued quickly. Soon we will make
the Final Summoning. Soon we will free the Lost Elders and return them to
their rightful place as rulers of the world. Soon we will return the world to
the paradise it once was.


I find it interesting, who exactly ar ethe lost elders and I wonder if Dee is trying to work to free someone very important to his elder....

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#51 [url]

Dec 4 08 1:35 AM

QUOTE (Zephfire @ December 01, 2008 01:32 pm)
QUOTE (Blazing star @ November 28, 2008 10:13 pm)
QUOTE (Vinterulv @ November 28, 2008 07:54 pm)
The difference between magician and necromancer is a magician learns spells and to manipulate stuff like both Dee and Machiavelli. A necromancer raises the dead.

Thanks for clearing that up!

Necromancers don't just raise the dead, they can also talk to them, just as Dee does to the recently departed Hekate in The Alchemyst.

Im not sure if this is correct or not but do you think that the raising of Golems or other inanimate "creatures" would be necromancy?


QUOTE (Vinterulv @ December 02, 2008 01:33 am)
What if Dee does not have an elder? What if he just has a super powerful being the same species that Abraham was and this person is the one that gave him immortality?

The only time Dee's elder is really mentioned is by Machiavelli and Flamel.

I was thinking something on similar lines. What if Dee does not have one particular dark elder but several. It says that when he followed the morrigan for the first time he was taken to work for the Dark Elders as in plural.


Fixed your double post

?!? TRANSMUTATION ?!?

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#52 [url]

Dec 22 08 6:01 PM

QUOTE (Nalic @ December 03, 2008 07:35 pm)
Im not sure if this is correct or not but do you think that the raising of Golems or other inanimate "creatures" would be necromancy?

I don't think so. Necromancy deals with raising the dead and talking to spirits. The golems and tulpa are made out of inanimate materials and are brought to "life" using spells and the imagination.

Anyone else have thoughts on this?

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Bellus Stella

Next Generation Elder

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#53 [url]

Dec 22 08 6:43 PM

QUOTE (LunaAquaVirgo @ December 22, 2008 01:01 pm)
QUOTE (Nalic @ December 03, 2008 07:35 pm)
Im not sure if this is correct or not but do you think that the raising of Golems or other inanimate "creatures" would be necromancy?

I don't think so. Necromancy deals with raising the dead and talking to spirits. The golems and tulpa are made out of inanimate materials and are brought to "life" using spells and the imagination.

Anyone else have thoughts on this?

Couldnt of said it better actually Luna! i believe you are right on with that description!

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sirius2

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#54 [url]

Dec 22 08 7:00 PM

Necromancy deals with actual beings/spirits brought to life by magic. Golums are inanimate objects (clay) brought to life by magic. A tulpa is an imagination/thought form brought to life, sometimes unknowingly, or knowingly for any reason or protective purposes even doubling as its creator. It can opperate indepedently from them having their thoughts and such. So one may not know that the person they see is the real person or the tulpa.

"After all, to the well-organized mind, death is but the next great adventure."
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Spacecadet

Next Generation Elder

Posts: 17,429

#55 [url]

Jan 5 09 3:06 PM

QUOTE (Ectw101 @ January 03, 2009 04:21 pm)
QUOTE (JoyeuseOne @ January 03, 2009 10:13 pm)
We know that there are 5 Magics:  Air, Water, Fire, Earth, & Time

There are 4 Elemental Swords:  Air, Water {Excalibur}, Fire {Clarent}, Earth

Can we expect to see an Elemental Object for Time?

I think we will, I would think from Dee, because I can see his unknown elder being Chronus, Titan Lord of time. The book said, something about the elder stepping out of the shadows, and Chronus was said to be thrown into Tatartus, a pit in the underworld, which could resemble "the shadows".


I grabbed this from the questions thread because i thought it was interesting, however im not sure chronos is dee's elder. The following quote from the alchemyst explains why dee and his elder might want the codex.

QUOTE
The fifth force was the magic of Time, the greatest of all magics. The
Elders could control all the other elements, but the secret of the fifth was
contained only in the Codex and that was one of the many reasons why Dee, and
the Dark Elders he sided with, wanted the Codex. With it in their possession,
they would be able to control time itself.


So Chronos is probably not dee's elder because he already knows how to control time, but this may be a hint into who dee's elder actually is, we need to look for someone who recently came out of "the shadows" and who would benefit from controlling time.

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hitmanjls

Next Generation Elder

Posts: 13,272

#56 [url]

Jan 5 09 3:12 PM

But that quote raises another question!

If the power of time can only be found in the Codex.... Then how is/was Chronos the master of it???

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Spacecadet

Next Generation Elder

Posts: 17,429

#57 [url]

Jan 5 09 3:20 PM

QUOTE (hitmanjls @ January 05, 2009 09:12 am)
But that quote raises another question!

If the power of time can only be found in the Codex.... Then how is/was Chronos the master of it???

well we know people like abraham the mage can see the future. and Dora gave up her gift of site to see the future. And yes i know seeing the future is slightly different than controlling it, but maybe its something similar to that, one has to give up something to be able to control time.

Also how did abraham know how to control time, he obviously had to know inorder to write it in the codex. Maybe chronos told him. Maybe its an ability chronos was born with, or maybe Chronos learned it from the codex long ago who knows. I guess there is a mystery surrounding how those who knew how to control time learned this information.

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#58 [url]

Jan 5 09 6:19 PM

A little question:

What would be the reason for dr. Dee to get the book, destroy the humani and to get the elders back to earth? What is his goal? What is his gain in this?

I'm curious to hear:)

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Godsryche

Next Generation Elder

Posts: 13,852

#59 [url]

Jan 5 09 6:25 PM

QUOTE (Looki @ January 05, 2009 02:19 pm)
A little question:

What would be the reason for dr. Dee to get the book, destroy the humani and to get the elders back to earth? What is his goal? What is his gain in this?

I'm curious to hear:)

Power.

Pure and simple Power.

He figures if he helps the Elders get what they want they will grant him all the power he needs.

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#60 [url]

Jan 5 09 6:32 PM

He wants to rule the world, and also theres another reason, which might not be true that he will return the earth to the paradise it once was....

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