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Zephfire

Next Generation Elder

Posts: 18,045

#21 [url]

Nov 1 08 9:50 AM

QUOTE (Spacecadet @ October 30, 2008 02:42 pm)
I think everything that Dee does is for his personal benefit. I think also that he is sadly mistaken on the rewards he's going to receive from his elder. I think the dark elders do grant gifts and reward those that serve them well but i dont think its necessarily to the degree dee thinks hes going to be rewarded. I think that the dark elders especially one as powerful as dee's dark elder is, use the humani that serve them as mere pawns. And i think when dee fails his elder (and in the end im almost certain he will), he is going to be saddled with a punishment worse than death.

But of course if Dee manages to get hold of the last two pages of the Codex he won't need his Elder anymore, he'll be able to make the Elixer so it won't matter if his Dark Elder revokes his gift or not..if you work on the assumption that Dee does everything for his own gain, then there's nothing to say he'll hand the Codex over to the Dark Elders at all, he'll be infinitely superior to the humani and he can keep the Dark Elders at bay.

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#22 [url]

Nov 1 08 12:10 PM

QUOTE (Zephfire @ November 01, 2008 03:50 am)
QUOTE (Spacecadet @ October 30, 2008 02:42 pm)
I think everything that Dee does is for his personal benefit.  I think also that he is sadly mistaken on the rewards he's going to receive from his elder.  I think the dark elders do grant gifts and reward those that serve them well but i dont think its necessarily to the degree dee thinks hes going to be rewarded.  I think that the dark elders especially one as powerful as dee's dark elder is, use the humani that serve them as mere pawns.  And i think when dee fails his elder (and in the end im almost certain he will), he is going to be saddled with a punishment worse than death.

But of course if Dee manages to get hold of the last two pages of the Codex he won't need his Elder anymore, he'll be able to make the Elixer so it won't matter if his Dark Elder revokes his gift or not..if you work on the assumption that Dee does everything for his own gain, then there's nothing to say he'll hand the Codex over to the Dark Elders at all, he'll be infinitely superior to the humani and he can keep the Dark Elders at bay.

That sounds exactly like what Dee would do. Thank goodness he doesn't realize that Josh has those precious little pages right underneath his shirt...yet.

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Spacecadet

Next Generation Elder

Posts: 17,429

#23 [url]

Nov 1 08 3:24 PM

QUOTE (Zephfire @ November 01, 2008 04:50 am)
QUOTE (Spacecadet @ October 30, 2008 02:42 pm)
I think everything that Dee does is for his personal benefit.  I think also that he is sadly mistaken on the rewards he's going to receive from his elder.  I think the dark elders do grant gifts and reward those that serve them well but i dont think its necessarily to the degree dee thinks hes going to be rewarded.  I think that the dark elders especially one as powerful as dee's dark elder is, use the humani that serve them as mere pawns.  And i think when dee fails his elder (and in the end im almost certain he will), he is going to be saddled with a punishment worse than death.

But of course if Dee manages to get hold of the last two pages of the Codex he won't need his Elder anymore, he'll be able to make the Elixer so it won't matter if his Dark Elder revokes his gift or not..if you work on the assumption that Dee does everything for his own gain, then there's nothing to say he'll hand the Codex over to the Dark Elders at all, he'll be infinitely superior to the humani and he can keep the Dark Elders at bay.

this is assuming he undestands the codex and can figure out the elixir of life. Remember how long it took nicholas and perenelle to find someone to translate the book for them? They couldnt read it on their own. So i imagine even if dee gets the entire book, which he very well might at some point he's still going to have to find someone to translate it for him.

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#24 [url]

Nov 1 08 4:16 PM

I think Dee can translate it easily. I think we already met someone that can translate it for Dee. Machevelli's driver the Dagon. Dagon is like way older then any elder and he knows stuff that not even Flamel knows, I think he knows how to translate the codex and he would do that for Machevelli. As we all know Dee is very big on violence and could force Machevelli to get Dagon to translate it.

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Zephfire

Next Generation Elder

Posts: 18,045

#25 [url]

Nov 9 08 6:28 AM

We know that Dr Dee can read the Codex, how else would he have known exactly what pages were missing? The question remains just how much he'll actually understand it, Nicholas admits that he's only just scratched the surface of the Codex's secrets after all the time that he's been it's guardian!

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#26 [url]

Nov 9 08 6:29 AM

So that should mean that Dee cannot even scratch it yet. I am curious as to how Dee learned to read it. If the dark elders and elders cannot look upon it who taught him? I mean Hook taught Flamel and Perry but who else is there

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#27 [url]

Nov 13 08 1:10 PM

QUOTE (Zephfire @ October 05, 2008 03:44 am)
Sophie doesn't trust him, Scatty clearly despises him, Nicholas fights him at every turn, but Josh listens to him...so who's side is the Doctor on, is he as evil as we're led to believe?

well i don't think josh exactly listens to him, but that dee is very persuasive, and that he used some trick on josh, such as hypnotism, and we very clearly know that he is evil, because we know his tendencies to kill any person, or destroy any monument, regardless of which one it is, and that proves that he is evil as he uses his powers for his own personal gains, i think that if it had been dee instead of nicholas, or nicholas would had been like dee, then he would have brought don the eiffel tower and kill all the tourists and if possible machiavelli and his troops, just to escape them, that proves that dee is evil, and in the words of Niccolo Machiavelli dee is a dangerous fanatic....

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Spacecadet

Next Generation Elder

Posts: 17,429

#28 [url]

Nov 13 08 2:30 PM

QUOTE (baksh @ November 13, 2008 07:10 am)
QUOTE (Zephfire @ October 05, 2008 03:44 am)
Sophie doesn't trust him, Scatty clearly despises him, Nicholas fights him at every turn, but Josh listens to him...so who's side is the Doctor on, is he as evil as we're led to believe?

well i don't think josh exactly listens to him, but that dee is very persuasive, and that he used some trick on josh, such as hypnotism, and we very clearly know that he is evil, because we know his tendencies to kill any person, or destroy any monument, regardless of which one it is, and that proves that he is evil as he uses his powers for his own personal gains, i think that if it had been dee instead of nicholas, or nicholas would had been like dee, then he would have brought don the eiffel tower and kill all the tourists and if possible machiavelli and his troops, just to escape them, that proves that dee is evil, and in the words of Niccolo Machiavelli dee is a dangerous fanatic....

I think you are right dee is definately very persuasive, but i also think he does it consciously. I think he is very good at ready and observing people and knowing exaclty what to say at the right time. A master manipulator if you will. I think this is why he's lived so long under such a powerful dark elder, you have to be rather cunning to survive that. But i think even his wit will only get him so far and that will eventually catch up to him.

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#29 [url]

Nov 13 08 3:42 PM

QUOTE (Spacecadet @ November 13, 2008 02:30 pm)
QUOTE (baksh @ November 13, 2008 07:10 am)
QUOTE (Zephfire @ October 05, 2008 03:44 am)
Sophie doesn't trust him, Scatty clearly despises him, Nicholas fights him at every turn, but Josh listens to him...so who's side is the Doctor on, is he as evil as we're led to believe?

well i don't think josh exactly listens to him, but that dee is very persuasive, and that he used some trick on josh, such as hypnotism, and we very clearly know that he is evil, because we know his tendencies to kill any person, or destroy any monument, regardless of which one it is, and that proves that he is evil as he uses his powers for his own personal gains, i think that if it had been dee instead of nicholas, or nicholas would had been like dee, then he would have brought don the eiffel tower and kill all the tourists and if possible machiavelli and his troops, just to escape them, that proves that dee is evil, and in the words of Niccolo Machiavelli dee is a dangerous fanatic....

I think you are right dee is definately very persuasive, but i also think he does it consciously. I think he is very good at ready and observing people and knowing exaclty what to say at the right time. A master manipulator if you will. I think this is why he's lived so long under such a powerful dark elder, you have to be rather cunning to survive that. But i think even his wit will only get him so far and that will eventually catch up to him.

yeah right, i just put in the hypnotism part because we are told that he is submerging a part of his finger in the fountain and moving it around, and that josh is also following it....otherwise even i think he is a master manipulator as you put it, of which we are given proof in the magician in the scenes where he is disussing with machiavelli, especially in the one where he manipulates machiavelli to not to capture flamel and the twins, and just to keep an eye on them until he reaches paris....

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#30 [url]

Nov 17 08 10:19 PM

Someone said they think Dee may not be able to love. Well I think he does love someone. I think he loves the Morrigan.

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#31 [url]

Nov 18 08 10:11 AM

QUOTE (LunaAquaVirgo @ October 28, 2008 02:43 am)
I believe Dr. John Dee is as bad as they come...he reminds me of another villain (*cough* Voldemort *cough*)...who is only in it for himself.

well i would have agreed, if it would not have been for the fact that Dee is immortal, where as voldy wasn't, and Dee is afrad of more people(like a few elders and perry) than old voldy, he was only afraid of one person, that is dumbledore....

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Michael Scott

Next Generation Elder

Posts: 12,225

#32 [url]

Nov 21 08 1:00 AM

QUOTE (hitmanjls @ October 28, 2008 08:20 pm)
No, thats not what I said at all. Awakening doesn't seem to be a "gift"... It's already there, they just awaken it.

Immortality is always referred to as a gift in the books. A gift that can be taken away.

Josh asks if Sophie's powers can be returned to normal and the answer was no.

My opinion is that if an elder is killed any gifts of immortality could possibly be revoked in the process.

It is probably time I commented on the ongoing discussion about immortality. Immortality is a "gift" that can be given and removed at the whim of the Elder. It is, obviously, one of the ways, the human servants can be controlled by their Elder masters. Once the immortality gift is removed, the human ages. So, for example, if you were 30 years old when you became immortal and have lived for 600 years, you will instantly age those 600 hundred years and become 630 years old. (And die instantly, of course!) However, if the Elder dies, immortality is not taken away. Inasmuch as only the Elder who conferred immortality can remove it, if the Elder is killed, then the gift cannot be removed. But remember, it is immortality we are talking about and not invulnerability. Michael

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hitmanjls

Next Generation Elder

Posts: 13,272

#33 [url]

Nov 21 08 7:49 PM

So given that, one who has been bestowed with immortality could conspire to kill the Elder that gave it, so it could never be taken away?

And then that person would be free to make their own decisions....


I moved the discussion about Saint-Germain over into his thread

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#35 [url]

Nov 23 08 12:14 PM

QUOTE (Vinterulv @ November 22, 2008 10:48 pm)
Any idea why Dee is more of a Magician when he seems to prefer being a Necromancer?

well, maybe because he was more famous for his magic abilities, than his necromancy abilities....??

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#38 [url]

Nov 28 08 9:13 PM

QUOTE (Vinterulv @ November 28, 2008 07:54 pm)
The difference between magician and necromancer is a magician learns spells and to manipulate stuff like both Dee and Machiavelli. A necromancer raises the dead.

Thanks for clearing that up!

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#39 [url]

Nov 29 08 11:19 PM

QUOTE (Spacecadet @ November 01, 2008 03:24 pm)
QUOTE (Zephfire @ November 01, 2008 04:50 am)
QUOTE (Spacecadet @ October 30, 2008 02:42 pm)
I think everything that Dee does is for his personal benefit.  I think also that he is sadly mistaken on the rewards he's going to receive from his elder.  I think the dark elders do grant gifts and reward those that serve them well but i dont think its necessarily to the degree dee thinks hes going to be rewarded.  I think that the dark elders especially one as powerful as dee's dark elder is, use the humani that serve them as mere pawns.  And i think when dee fails his elder (and in the end im almost certain he will), he is going to be saddled with a punishment worse than death.

But of course if Dee manages to get hold of the last two pages of the Codex he won't need his Elder anymore, he'll be able to make the Elixer so it won't matter if his Dark Elder revokes his gift or not..if you work on the assumption that Dee does everything for his own gain, then there's nothing to say he'll hand the Codex over to the Dark Elders at all, he'll be infinitely superior to the humani and he can keep the Dark Elders at bay.

this is assuming he undestands the codex and can figure out the elixir of life. Remember how long it took nicholas and perenelle to find someone to translate the book for them? They couldnt read it on their own. So i imagine even if dee gets the entire book, which he very well might at some point he's still going to have to find someone to translate it for him.

remember Dee knew the rune symbols to make the spears. and perenelle remembered similar symbols in the codex. i think that Dee may be able to read more of the codex in a shorter time then nicholas could.

?!? TRANSMUTATION ?!?

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#40 [url]

Nov 30 08 1:30 AM

I think you are right. I also think Dee has something more ancient then the codex but not more powerful.

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