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#21 [url]

Aug 4 09 2:54 AM

QUOTE (Lucy @ August 04, 2009 02:33 am)
Parts of this are from a previous post of mine, but I thought it might be a good place to start and then we can move from there. So here we go:

In The beginning of the Sorceress thread Michael Scott said:
“Shakespeare was one of the hardest parts to write. When he quotes something, he's quoting from one of the plays (lots of clues there), and when he creates the creatures in the car yard, they too are all drawn from his works. Now, if only someone had the patience to identify the creatures and link them to the bard's works, there are some great clues there...”

So here we have it:

From P. 286 of the Sorceress we know that Shakespeare conjured up:
The Serpent of the Nile, spotted snake with double tongue, thorny hedgehogs, newts, blind worms, toads (ugly and venomous).

In A Midsummer Nights Dream there is a scene where Titania is talking to her faerie legion and asks them to sing her to sleep. So one of her fellow faeries sings, “You Spotted Snakes with Double Tongue, Thorny Hedgehogs, be not seen, Newts and Blind Worms, do no wrong.”

What I understand so far is that newts refer to water lizards, and newts, blind worms and spiders were all considered to be poisonous.

And for another Midsummer (possible) reference in The Magician Dee mentions knowing the Amazons, and Hippolyta who is the Queen of the Amazons is a significant minor character in Midsummer.

So is this a good place to start or should I post all of what I have found so far (even though I am sure there is a ton more)? But I do have As You Like It, MacBeth, and (thank you Sparticle) Hamlet. Plus assorted bits of other things… flamelssecret/read.gif

Yeah Fumm, I love that line too!

I think that's a very good way to go off to find more information about Shakespeare and the series. What other information did you find? Unfortunately, I'm not learning about Shakespeare until next year, when we're going to learn Romeo and Juliet.

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#22 [url]

Aug 4 09 3:10 AM

QUOTE (Lucy @ August 04, 2009 02:33 am)
Parts of this are from a previous post of mine, but I thought it might be a good place to start and then we can move from there. So here we go:

In The beginning of the Sorceress thread Michael Scott said:
“Shakespeare was one of the hardest parts to write. When he quotes something, he's quoting from one of the plays (lots of clues there), and when he creates the creatures in the car yard, they too are all drawn from his works. Now, if only someone had the patience to identify the creatures and link them to the bard's works, there are some great clues there...”

So here we have it:

From P. 286 of the Sorceress we know that Shakespeare conjured up:
The Serpent of the Nile, spotted snake with double tongue, thorny hedgehogs, newts, blind worms, toads (ugly and venomous).

In A Midsummer Nights Dream there is a scene where Titania is talking to her faerie legion and asks them to sing her to sleep. So one of her fellow faeries sings, “You Spotted Snakes with Double Tongue, Thorny Hedgehogs, be not seen, Newts and Blind Worms, do no wrong.”

What I understand so far is that newts refer to water lizards, and newts, blind worms and spiders were all considered to be poisonous.

And for another Midsummer (possible) reference in The Magician Dee mentions knowing the Amazons, and Hippolyta who is the Queen of the Amazons is a significant minor character in Midsummer.

So is this a good place to start or should I post all of what I have found so far (even though I am sure there is a ton more)? But I do have As You Like It, MacBeth, and (thank you Sparticle) Hamlet. Plus assorted bits of other things… flamelssecret/read.gif

Yeah Fumm, I love that line too!

lol, you're welcome.

No, keep going, you've got a great list so far. Unfortunately I don't have any Shakespeare of my own to look off of...note to self: buy Shakespeare next time I'm in Borders...

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#23 [url]

Aug 4 09 4:32 AM

Ah, Fumm, Romeo and Juliet is a much nicer way to start off Shakespeare. My seventh grade teacher had us read Titus Andronicus and I’ve never felt the same way about pie ever since. Yuck. flamelssecret/sFun_scared.gif
Yeah for Borders and Shakespeare and Michael Scott! Sparticle, buy the Arden editions, they are the best. Or at least I think they are the best, but not the comprehensive Arden. That is no help at all. Well never mind they’re all good. But for now we can read Shakespeare on line, just without footnotes. flamelssecret/confused0058.gif

So here we go again:

Hamlet:
(From The Alchemyst)
There are more things in Heaven and Earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy (Act 1 scene 5, lines 165-167)

*I like this quote because it is like a harbinger of all the things to come, and I know all of these quotes are like that we just have to figure them out!

(Back to Shakespeare’s quote in the junk yard)
As You Like It II.i. it mentions the toads:
"Sweet are the uses of adversity; which, like the toad, ugly and venomous, wears yet a precious jewel in his head."

Plus in A Midsummer Nights Dream screech owls are mentioned, but in 2Henry Act 1 scene 4 Shakespeare mentions screech owls and ban-dogs! So Ban dogs are dogs chained up, either to guard a house or because of their ferosity! This reminds me Palamedes “guard dogs”.

Well I threw in the Hamlet, but these are basically just the creature quotes MS mentioned we might get some clues from, but like Fumm said there is Puck’s “Lord what fools these mortals be”, and the Weird Sisters “When shall we three meet again?” From MacBeth... But I think we’d need to go back into the books to look for those, and any clues they might hold. I was just basically focusing on that small quote where we know some hints are. Thoughts?

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#24 [url]

Aug 5 09 4:05 AM

QUOTE (Lucy @ August 04, 2009 04:32 am)
Ah, Fumm, Romeo and Juliet is a much nicer way to start off Shakespeare. My seventh grade teacher had us read Titus Andronicus and I’ve never felt the same way about pie ever since. Yuck. flamelssecret/sFun_scared.gif
Yeah for Borders and Shakespeare and Michael Scott! Sparticle, buy the Arden editions, they are the best. Or at least I think they are the best, but not the comprehensive Arden. That is no help at all. Well never mind they’re all good. But for now we can read Shakespeare on line, just without footnotes. flamelssecret/confused0058.gif

So here we go again:

Hamlet:
(From The Alchemyst)
There are more things in Heaven and Earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy (Act 1 scene 5, lines 165-167)

*I like this quote because it is like a harbinger of all the things to come, and I know all of these quotes are like that we just have to figure them out!

(Back to Shakespeare’s quote in the junk yard)
As You Like It II.i. it mentions the toads:
"Sweet are the uses of adversity; which, like the toad, ugly and venomous, wears yet a precious jewel in his head."

Plus in A Midsummer Nights Dream screech owls are mentioned, but in 2Henry Act 1 scene 4 Shakespeare mentions screech owls and ban-dogs! So Ban dogs are dogs chained up, either to guard a house or because of their ferosity! This reminds me Palamedes “guard dogs”.

Well I threw in the Hamlet, but these are basically just the creature quotes MS mentioned we might get some clues from, but like Fumm said there is Puck’s “Lord what fools these mortals be”, and the Weird Sisters “When shall we three meet again?” From MacBeth... But I think we’d need to go back into the books to look for those, and any clues they might hold. I was just basically focusing on that small quote where we know some hints are. Thoughts?

I'll make sure to look for those the next time I'm in a book store

I think the quote from Hamlet could be hinting to some really big surprise or change that is going to catch everyone off guard...that and it's just plain awesome!

Maybe some of the "creature" quotes are hinting at different mythological creatures we'll meet later on...

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#25 [url]

Aug 5 09 6:01 PM

Yah, I think the Hamlet quote was a nice set up for the rest of the events that are to come throughout the books. So Sophie and Josh were just living their lives like regular teenagers and then BAM there life changes drastically. Now all of a sudden they must accept the fact that there is so much more going on in the world than they had any idea of. Like the Hamlet quote, there are more things in Heaven and Earth than are deamt of in your philisophy."

Now the question is can we do the same for the rest of the plays. What do you think of A Midsummer Nights Dream, The Tempest, Macbeth, and As You Like It for starters?

But yes I do think you ar right! Looking at the creatures will lead us to many helpful places, I think.

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#26 [url]

Aug 6 09 2:37 AM

QUOTE (Lucy @ August 05, 2009 06:01 pm)
Yah, I think the Hamlet quote was a nice set up for the rest of the events that are to come throughout the books. So Sophie and Josh were just living their lives like regular teenagers and then BAM there life changes drastically. Now all of a sudden they must accept the fact that there is so much more going on in the world than they had any idea of. Like the Hamlet quote, there are more things in Heaven and Earth than are deamt of in your philisophy."

Now the question is can we do the same for the rest of the plays. What do you think of A Midsummer Nights Dream, The Tempest, Macbeth, and As You Like It for starters?

But yes I do think you ar right! Looking at the creatures will lead us to many helpful places, I think.

Yeah, starting off with those plays sounds like a good idea.

I'll skim through The Sorceress myself and make sure we haven't missed any quotes.

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#27 [url]

Aug 6 09 4:55 PM

Well if we start of looking at the plays themselves for clues as to what's coming then...

If we start with Hamlet, The Tempest,As You Like It, Midsummer Nights Dream, and Macbeth we can see a big power struggle in each of them. Not that we need to find a similar thread between the plays, but it is a place to start.
Well Hamlet obviously Old Hamlet King of Denmark was killed by his brother King Claudius trying to get his power and his throne. In As You Like It Duke Senior was banished from his kingdom by his brother Duke Frederick, and thus stealing his power and his kingdom. In The Tempest Prospero, the duke of Milan, is dethroned and exiled on an island by Alonso, the King of Naples. Macbeth is just an all around bloody war for power especially between Macbeth and King Duncan for Scotland. And then thee is A Midsummer Nights Dream. For me the power struggle question here is what did Thesus do to obtain the Queen of the Amazons as his bride? Three of the plays have magical elements, one directly has prophecy...

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#28 [url]

Aug 6 09 10:28 PM

QUOTE (Lucy @ August 06, 2009 04:55 pm)
Well if we start of looking at the plays themselves for clues as to what's coming then...

If we start with Hamlet, The Tempest,As You Like It, Midsummer Nights Dream, and Macbeth we can see a big power struggle in each of them. Not that we need to find a similar thread between the plays, but it is a place to start.
Well Hamlet obviously Old Hamlet King of Denmark was killed by his brother King Claudius trying to get his power and his throne. In As You Like It Duke Senior was banished from his kingdom by his brother Duke Ferdinand, and thus stealing his power and his kingdom. In The Tempest Prospero, the duke of Milan, is dethroned and exiled on an island by Alonso, the King of Naples. Macbeth is just an all around bloody war for power especially between Macbeth and King Duncan for Scotland. And then thee is A Midsummer Nights Dream. For me the power struggle question here is what did Thesus do to obtain the Queen of the Amazons as his bride? Three of the plays have magical elements, one directly has prophecy...

And Hamlet mentions different mythological figures (mainly Greek and Roman).

That's a great summary of the plays. How about we try and find the context around the Shakespeare quotes in the Sorceress. Seeing the quotes used in the actual dialoge may help too.

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#29 [url]

Aug 7 09 4:51 AM

Ha well if I had written a summary it would have been far more useful than what I did write, but what I wrote was what wanted to come out.

So I think that is a great idea to just give the quote and whose saying it, and a little context (maybe a foot note or too).

Okay well I’m going to start with the junk yard scene:

The Sorceress P.286:
(1)Boil and bubble, boil and bubble. (2)First, let us have the Serpent of the Nile…(3)spotted snakes with double tongue…And now for some thorny hedgehogs, newts and blind worms…(4)and toads ugly and venomous…(5)and finally screech owls.

(1) Macbeth Act 4 Scene 1: The three weird sisters and Hecate are boiling up a cauldron of yucky stuff. Hecate leaves and Macbeth enters. They show him apparitions etc. to “prove” to him that the prophecy they gave him is true concerning his future.

(2) ?? Antony and Cleopatra

(3) A Midsummer Nights Dream Act 2 Scene 2 lines 9-12
Titania the Queen of the Faeries has had a big fight with Oberon the King of the Faeries. He wants control over a little boy she is rearing or guiding up. Titania will not give him the boy and so Oberon exacts his revenge by putting a nectar on her eyelids while she sleeps that will make her fall in love with the first thing she sees when she awakes. All of the creatures spoken of are lyrics one of her faeries is singing to her to lull her asleep.

(4) As You Like It Act 2 Scene 1
The banished Duke Senior is talking to some of his loyal exiled followers and friends and telling them how living in the forest is at least as pleasant as living in the court.

(5) ?? I don’t know. I can think of several plays it could have come from…

So how is this for starters? Thoughts?

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#30 [url]

Aug 7 09 1:05 PM

After reading how you typed that, I have a question. In the typing, the word Serpent is capitalized (Serpent of the Nile). Is that done on purpose? Was it like that in the book? If so, that may imply something, even though there were snakes in what he created.

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#31 [url]

Aug 7 09 1:16 PM

QUOTE (Fumm95 @ August 07, 2009 08:05 am)
After reading how you typed that, I have a question. In the typing, the word Serpent is capitalized (Serpent of the Nile). Is that done on purpose? Was it like that in the book? If so, that may imply something, even though there were snakes in what he created.

Actually I looked that up and i think "The Serpent of the Nile" might be a reference to Cleopatra, which was one of shalespeares plays (Anthony and Cleopatra)

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#32 [url]

Aug 7 09 1:39 PM

QUOTE (Spacecadet @ August 07, 2009 01:16 pm)
QUOTE (Fumm95 @ August 07, 2009 08:05 am)
After reading how you typed that, I have a question.  In the typing, the word Serpent is capitalized (Serpent of the Nile).  Is that done on purpose?  Was it like that in the book?  If so, that may imply something, even though there were snakes in what he created.

Actually I looked that up and i think "The Serpent of the Nile" might be a reference to Cleopatra, which was one of shalespeares plays (Anthony and Cleopatra)

Okay, so that's what she meant by Anthony and Cleopatra. Thank you!

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#33 [url]

Aug 7 09 3:55 PM

Yah, I was thnking about Cleopatra as the Serpent of the Nile, especially in light of the fact that we don't exactly know who the Queen in the prophecy is, but how would that work out in this context? If Shakespeare was conjuring up a bunch of toads, and hedgehogs, wouldn't someone then be like "Whoa, there's Cleopatra!"?

But didn't Shakespeare conjure up the Serpent of the Nile first and afterwards didn't Josh make a comment about snakes?

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#34 [url]

Aug 29 09 4:34 PM

I have a question; does anyone know hwo powerful Shakespeare is? Also, due to the fact that Shakespeare has a yellow aura, as well as dee, does that mean that there really can be duplicate auras other than Sophie and Joan?

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#35 [url]

Aug 29 09 7:12 PM

QUOTE (TheWhiteWizard @ August 29, 2009 04:34 pm)
I have a question; does anyone know hwo powerful Shakespeare is? Also, due to the fact that Shakespeare has a yellow aura, as well as dee, does that mean that there really can be duplicate auras other than Sophie and Joan?

We've only gotten a taste of Shakespeare's powers, and so far we know that he can scry, bend his aura (by this I mean he can create a suit of armor from his aura, like Joan), and he can conjure things from his imagination. He also studied under Dee, so who knows how much Shakespeare learned from him.

To answer your other question, we've already seen other cases of duplicate auras. Both Joan and Sophie have silver auras, and we've heard that King Tut had a gold aura like Josh.

Hope that helps

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#36 [url]

Aug 30 09 6:50 AM

QUOTE (Sparticle @ August 29, 2009 07:12 pm)
QUOTE (TheWhiteWizard @ August 29, 2009 04:34 pm)
I have a question; does anyone know hwo powerful Shakespeare is? Also, due to the fact that Shakespeare has a yellow aura, as well as dee, does that mean that there really can be duplicate auras other than Sophie and Joan?

We've only gotten a taste of Shakespeare's powers, and so far we know that he can scry, bend his aura (by this I mean he can create a suit of armor from his aura, like Joan), and he can conjure things from his imagination. He also studied under Dee, so who knows how much Shakespeare learned from him.

To answer your other question, we've already seen other cases of duplicate auras. Both Joan and Sophie have silver auras, and we've heard that King Tut had a gold aura like Josh.

Hope that helps

also Scatty ang Machiavelli

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#37 [url]

Sep 13 09 12:43 AM

QUOTE (budgge @ July 07, 2009 12:34 pm)
No I like it...
Because he is a powerful - what I would call - enchanter... maybe he though himself immortal when he was at his strongest and it became true...?

Enchanter... interesting choice of words... =) ... So someone like him is who we should look for to be the Enchantress... maybe? lol

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#38 [url]

Sep 13 09 2:50 AM

I'm guessing that the Enchantress is a female, because of the 'ESS' part and not the 'ER'? lol

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#39 [url]

Sep 13 09 3:44 AM

No I realize that... I just mean, that if you think he is an enchanter... then it might hint to us what the "ess" might be like. haha ... Sorry for the confusion.

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#40 [url]

Sep 14 09 12:40 PM

QUOTE (jacobs_bella @ September 12, 2009 10:44 pm)
No I realize that... I just mean, that if you think he is an enchanter... then it might hint to us what the "ess" might be like. haha ... Sorry for the confusion.

I think you are trying to say that we should be looking for females with similar abilities?

Given we really don't know if we've even met the Enchantress yet!

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