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Bellus Stella

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#21 [url]

Jun 2 09 1:43 PM

Awesome! Simply AWESOME! Definitly my favorite of the 3 books. i really need to reread it so i can pick up on more clues. Ive left my notes at home but one thing that is really picking my brain is the Ancient of Days character as well as Scatty's sister! We know that Michael said we would 'meet' the Necromancer by the end of book 3 (doesnt necessarily mean that we havent met him/her in book 1 or 2 either) but im thinking or more hoping that its Scatty's sister!

But first off, who is Ancient of Days??? Here is Wiki's description of the title:

QUOTE
Ancient of Days is a name for God in Aramaic: Atik Yomin; in the Greek Septuagint: Palaios Hemeron; and in the Vulgate: Antiquus Dierum.

The title "Ancient of Days" has been used as a source of inspiration in art and music, denoting the creator's aspects of eternity combined with perfection.

This term appears three times in the book of Daniel (7:9, 13, 22),[1] and is used in the sense of God being eternal.[2]

In most religion it is used to represent their god:
QUOTE
Judaism: The most powerful effect of this particular Name of God stems from the Jewish mystical book the Zohar, the seminal document of Kaballah that stems from 13th century Spain. In the Kaballah there is mention of the Ancient of Ancients, also interpreted as En Sof or the unmanifested God. The Ancient of Days is the maifestation of the Ancient of Ancients in space and time. The Kaballah goes into great detail describing the White Head of God and ultimately the emanation of its personality or attributes.[3]
Christianity: In Eastern Orthodox Christian hymns and icons, the Ancient of Days is sometimes identified with God the Father, and sometimes with God the Son, or Jesus Christ. As such, Christian art will sometimes portray Jesus Christ as an old man, the Ancient of Days, to show symbolically that he existed from all eternity, and sometimes as a young man to portray him as he was incarnate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_of_Days

So its someone that is eternal and god like, described with an unkept beard, blue eyes and radiating of yellow light. Sounds like a god like description to me but the way the scene is described in the book is almost like Dee is seeing this through like a dream. Maybe the swords are giving him a flash of memory. Its definitly someone that knows these swords he seems to painfully remember them and as tears fill his eyes, almost like he is afraid of what they will do now that they are united again...

As for Aoife, i found this interesting site http://www.shee-eire.com/Magic&Mythology/W...Aoife/Page1.htm
Where Scathach was Aoife's tutor and not sister. Very interesting. Aoife also had a son who got slain by his own father because of Aoife plan of revenge. Seems like a character filled with anger but then on Wiki, a small description, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aoife
QUOTE
It is commonly regarded as an Irish language equivalent of the female given name Eve or Eva. However, this is incorrect as the names have very different origins. Suggestions that "Aoife" means "radiant beauty" or beautiful and is derived from the Irish word "aoibheann" (sweet) are likewise not supported by any philological evidence.
She is also seen as: Aífe or Aoife, the jealous stepmother in the Irish myth, Children of Lir.

Wonder which approach Michael will take! The sweet loving sister or the revenged-fill mother!

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Mollysarmy

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#22 [url]

Jun 2 09 9:53 PM

QUOTE (Spacecadet @ June 02, 2009 05:48 am)
QUOTE (budgge @ June 02, 2009 07:38 am)
QUOTE (Spacecadet @ June 02, 2009 12:31 pm)
QUOTE (budgge)
5. Was that actually The Morrigan the whole time? And just putting on voices? And she did that because she felt bad? and didnt want it getting around that she actually Perenelle Flamel when she could have killed her.


This is actually a very good question... how do we know if we can trust the morrigan (well her sisters) and how do we know the morrigan wont return and pretend to be the others. I think the eyes are the big hint in this case. Im not sure something like that can be faked but this shall remain to be seen. But Im guessing that its not a coincidence that whenever a new character is introduced we are almost always told what color eyes they have, I think some of that is because we are going to find more than a few relatives in the future that we arent expecting right off the bat, and we are also going to see characters like the morrigan with her sisters trapped inside her and this might be a good way to tell the entities apart.

Well the only reason I thought this is because why does everyone think her sisters are dead? I don't actually think they are dead but they are being held captive somewhere by her... We will just have to wait. Another year .. I'm counting down already... 350 days

I dont think they are dead, well not in a complete sense. I think probably their physical bodies no longer exist but their spirits are being held within the morrigan's body. Although I guess its possible there are some empty shells that belong to the sisters, out there somewhere.


(Thanks to whomever combined my posts. :-) I just was thinking I should have done that.)

I don't have the book here, but didn't the sisters say that they have always existed within the same body? Just that during particular times of the year, one personality or another would be transcendent and in control? Perry mentioned that this explained why they were never seen together. I think they also said that the Morrigan had done something to suppress them and maintain control all the time.

As to whether or not we can trust them, that is a whole other kettle of fish... or birds... I think that perhaps the debt that they owed to Perry is now paid. She released them and helped them regain control of the body, and they helped her escape Nereus. My guess is that they are now waiting to see what happens next and will declare their "side" once thing has advanced more. I get the feeling that their self-interest will motivate them more than anything else. Although revenge will also be high up on their list. They didn't seem overly pleased that Morrigan had been following another's orders, lol.


Some additional things that popped up as I was doing research (warning the history geek has been unleashed, lol)...

1. Nereus (The Old Man of the Sea) is the son of Gaea (Mother Earth, who I also found referred to as a Titan, or as the mother of Titans) and he married a Titan (Doris). Their union produced the Nereids, including Amphitrite with whom Poseidon (or Neptune in Roman mythology) fell in love and eventually woed and married. If I have my hierarchy right (and please correct me if I am wrong) this could make Nereus a first generation Elder, on the same generational level as Hekate and Mars. Which to me means that if he is repaying a debt to Dee's Elder by attacking the Sorceress, then Dee's Elder is either an incredibly powerful first generation Elder or perhaps a Great Elder who survived the fall of Danu Tallis. Hmmmm more research is definitely needed, lol.

2. In looking for twin gods/goddesses with dual male and female aspects I came upon some interesting information regarding Celtic lore and The Morrigan. I apologize if this is a repeat of things that have been posted elsewhere in this forum. I haven't read all of the threads all the way through yet. I don't want to post this somewhere else either as it pertains to the aspect of The Morrigan that becomes clearer in this book.

In Celtic mythology the Tuatha Dé Danann (People of the Goddess Danu), are one of the mythical races said to have settled in Ireland. The Dannans are seen as deities as well as heroes. They are also seen as immortal in that they could live for a long period of time, but could be killed. In this tradition, The Morrigan is described as a tripartite goddess, a goddess with three separate personalities or aspects. She is either referred to as three goddesses with the same name, or as one goddess with three aspects in one body.

To me this also brings to mind Danu Tallis, and ther perhaps some Elders fled first to Ireland after the Island sunk bringing forth the mythology of Danu, the mother Goddess.

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#24 [url]

Jun 3 09 12:49 AM

I FINISHED! Actually, I borrowed a friends, but yeah...
When Nick fell down and his aura died at the fight in the end in the forest, I was like OMG, he died! I mean, he was talking about dseath the whole time...
I was a bit sad for the Morrigan, though...and for Macha and Babd. I mean, the Morrigan could have just killed them and taken their memories instead of..."eating" them...but I LOVE the Morrigan way more than I love Alice in Twilight. That is big.

Um, because I can't spoil it on the Your Questions thread:
Um, I can't remember- what happened to Areop-Enap(Lord, I love tht name) to put her (it was either her or it) in a cocoon?

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Fuzzbinn

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#25 [url]

Jun 3 09 2:39 AM

QUOTE (Bellus Stella @ June 02, 2009 01:43 pm)

But first off, who is Ancient of Days???

hmmm... ancient of days. i had thought that was talking about gilgamesh.... interesting stuff though.

Anyone have thoughts as to who the Necromancer is?

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Mollysarmy

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#26 [url]

Jun 3 09 5:05 AM

QUOTE (silvertouch @ June 02, 2009 05:49 pm)
I FINISHED! Actually, I borrowed a friends, but yeah...
When Nick fell down and his aura died at the fight in the end in the forest, I was like OMG, he died! I mean, he was talking about dseath the whole time...
I was a bit sad for the Morrigan, though...and for Macha and Babd. I mean, the Morrigan could have just killed them and taken their memories instead of..."eating" them...but I LOVE the Morrigan way more than I love Alice in Twilight. That is big.

Um, because I can't spoil it on the Your Questions thread:
Um, I can't remember- what happened to Areop-Enap(Lord, I love tht name) to put her (it was either her or it) in a cocoon?

The Old Spider was biten millions or billions of times by the poisoned flies. She was weakened and needed to sleep in order to heal.

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#27 [url]

Jun 3 09 10:51 AM

QUOTE (Zephfire @ May 21, 2009 02:34 pm)
So you've finished The Sorceress..well done you!  flamelssecret/clap3.gif If you haven't read the Sorceress yet..this is your last warning...don't scroll down unless you're sure you won't mind seeing spoilers!!

We hope you loved it and now you're ready to talk about it! What did you most like? Who is your favourite new character? Did events happen in a way you didn't expect?  Fire away..let's read your thoughts and questions!

I finished it and i was really mad for what he did to scatty and joan. I thought I was going 2 cry!!! flamelssecret/crying.gif

Please dont use such words on the forum!

"I used to tell my troops that if they could still feel pain? They were alive." Joan of Arc, The Sorceress.

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#28 [url]

Jun 3 09 11:00 AM

QUOTE (Elysia @ June 03, 2009 08:51 pm)
QUOTE (Zephfire @ May 21, 2009 02:34 pm)
So you've finished The Sorceress..well done you!  flamelssecret/clap3.gif If you haven't read the Sorceress yet..this is your last warning...don't scroll down unless you're sure you won't mind seeing spoilers!!

We hope you loved it and now you're ready to talk about it! What did you most like? Who is your favourite new character? Did events happen in a way you didn't expect?  Fire away..let's read your thoughts and questions!

I finished it and I'm ready to kill a certain auther for what he did to scatty and joan. I thought I was going 2 cry!!! flamelssecret/crying.gif

I was rather dissapointed too... Michael can you at least tell us one thing... they don't die... do they?



QUOTE
Anyone have thoughts as to who the Necromancer is?



I think it's Josh. I think that Machiavelli or maybe even Billy the Kid trains him in the next one.

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Spacecadet

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#29 [url]

Jun 3 09 12:21 PM

QUOTE (budgge @ June 03, 2009 06:00 am)
QUOTE (Elysia @ June 03, 2009 08:51 pm)
QUOTE (Zephfire @ May 21, 2009 02:34 pm)
So you've finished The Sorceress..well done you!  flamelssecret/clap3.gif If you haven't read the Sorceress yet..this is your last warning...don't scroll down unless you're sure you won't mind seeing spoilers!!

We hope you loved it and now you're ready to talk about it! What did you most like? Who is your favourite new character? Did events happen in a way you didn't expect?  Fire away..let's read your thoughts and questions!

I finished it and I'm ready to kill a certain auther for what he did to scatty and joan. I thought I was going 2 cry!!! flamelssecret/crying.gif

I was rather dissapointed too... Michael can you at least tell us one thing... they don't die... do they?


I could be wrong but i dont believe either will die (atleast not right away) there is still a lot more story to be told, we are only halfway through the series, and there is a lot to still be learned. Ive come to find that everything in this series happens for a reason and there are very little if any coincidences, the story is very well calculated and constructed. I have no doubt in my mind that scatty and joan were sent to the distant past for a good reason and that we will see more of them before the series is over.

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#30 [url]

Jun 3 09 12:25 PM

QUOTE (Spacecadet @ June 03, 2009 10:21 pm)
QUOTE (budgge @ June 03, 2009 06:00 am)
QUOTE (Elysia @ June 03, 2009 08:51 pm)
QUOTE (Zephfire @ May 21, 2009 02:34 pm)
So you've finished The Sorceress..well done you!  flamelssecret/clap3.gif If you haven't read the Sorceress yet..this is your last warning...don't scroll down unless you're sure you won't mind seeing spoilers!!

We hope you loved it and now you're ready to talk about it! What did you most like? Who is your favourite new character? Did events happen in a way you didn't expect?  Fire away..let's read your thoughts and questions!

I finished it and I'm ready to kill a certain auther for what he did to scatty and joan. I thought I was going 2 cry!!! flamelssecret/crying.gif

I was rather dissapointed too... Michael can you at least tell us one thing... they don't die... do they?


I could be wrong but i dont believe either will die (atleast not right away) there is still a lot more story to be told, we are only halfway through the series, and there is a lot to still be learned. Ive come to find that everything in this series happens for a reason and there are very little if any coincidences, the story is very well calculated and constructed. I have no doubt in my mind that scatty and joan were sent to the distant past for a good reason and that we will see more of them before the series is over.

A thought just struck me.

What about they go into a shadowrealm to come to the present but they get out at the wrong time and they get out to when Dee is getting awakened or something like that?

Also what about this is when Chronus comes to get Scatty like in mythology?

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Spacecadet

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#31 [url]

Jun 3 09 12:31 PM

QUOTE (budgge @ June 03, 2009 07:25 am)


What about they go into a shadowrealm to come to the present but they get out at the wrong time and they get out to when Dee is getting awakened or something like that?

Also what about this is when Chronus comes to get Scatty like in mythology?

I think any of that is possible, but when you open up the possibility of time, the options seem limitless, but they (in most cases) are confined to the realm of what has already happened (you know the whole you cant change the past philosophy). That despite something happening in the past (with respect to the world's timeline) it might be in someone else's future (i.e. joan's and scatty's). So this is why i think joan and scatty being in the past is so interesting, because it could possibly allow us the readers to see into the elder's past and possibly see how some of the current things came to pass. And in the end what seems like limitless possibilities to the readers is actually just a set of very well calculated movements that have already occurred (for the general population, but not scatty and joan). Ahh the joys and confusion of time travel, but when planned out properly it all comes together quite nicely .

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#32 [url]

Jun 3 09 12:34 PM

QUOTE (Spacecadet @ June 03, 2009 10:31 pm)
QUOTE (budgge @ June 03, 2009 07:25 am)


What about they go into a shadowrealm to come to the present but they get out at the wrong time and they get out to when Dee is getting awakened or something like that?

Also what about this is when Chronus comes to get Scatty like in mythology?

I think any of that is possible, but when you open up the possibility of time, the options seem limitless, but they (in most cases) are confined to the realm of what has already happened (you know the whole you cant change the past philosophy). That despite something happening in the past (with respect to the world's timeline) it might be in someone else's future (i.e. joan's and scatty's). So this is why i think joan and scatty being in the past is so interesting, because it could possibly allow us the readers to see into the elder's past and possibly see how some of the current things came to pass. And in the end what seems like limitless possibilities to the readers is actually just a set of very well calculated movements that have already occurred (for the general population, but not scatty and joan). Ahh the joys and confusion of time travel, but when planned out properly it all comes together quite nicely .

Wow, I never thought about it like that.

So are you saying they could have been sent to one of their own past's? Wow so many different ideas for twists are running through my head.

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Bellus Stella

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#33 [url]

Jun 3 09 12:43 PM

Wait wait wait! They were sent out pretty far back so that might mean, maybe, that we will get to see characters that were only mentionned in the previous books! flamelssecret/icon_bounce.gif Maybe Scatty and Joan will come across the original twins or some other very powerful elder! I dont have my books here but i would need to check the timeline as to when the fall occurs vs. when Scatty and Joan are!

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#34 [url]

Jun 3 09 12:45 PM

I don't have my books either, but correct me if I'm wrong I think it's actually some time in the Mezazoic Era? I think thats the word flamelssecret/idk.gif

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Spacecadet

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#35 [url]

Jun 3 09 12:52 PM

QUOTE (budgge @ June 03, 2009 07:34 am)
QUOTE (Spacecadet @ June 03, 2009 10:31 pm)

I think any of that is possible, but when you open up the possibility of time, the options seem limitless, but they (in most cases) are confined to the realm of what has already happened (you know the whole you cant change the past philosophy).  That despite something happening in the past (with respect to the world's timeline) it might be in someone else's future (i.e. joan's and scatty's).  So this is why i think joan and scatty being in the past is so interesting, because it could possibly allow us the readers to see into the elder's past and possibly see how some of the current things came to pass.  And in the end what seems like limitless possibilities to the readers is actually just a set of very well calculated movements that have already occurred (for the general population, but not scatty and joan).  Ahh the joys and confusion of time travel, but when planned out properly it all comes together quite nicely .

Wow, I never thought about it like that.

So are you saying they could have been sent to one of their own past's? Wow so many different ideas for twists are running through my head.

well not so much their own past's (although that is a possibility as well) but the general past. This is where things get confusing, Joan and Scatty are in the past (but what is to come is their future), while in the past joan and scatty might do something maybe for examples sake say they cause a chain of events that leads to the fall of danu talis. Well they never knew it was themselves that caused this to happen until it comes to pass, but they do know that the event occurred. So Joan and Scatty being in the past could be a catalyst for some major event that comes to pass later on and effects the twins and the rest of the characters in the story's future, or their being in the past could be the reason why certain events have happened the way they did to lead to present day. See all very confusing but definitely lots of possibilities there.

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Bellus Stella

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#36 [url]

Jun 3 09 12:55 PM

QUOTE (Spacecadet @ June 03, 2009 08:52 am)
well not so much their own past's (although that is a possibility as well) but the general past. This is where things get confusing, Joan and Scatty are in the past (but what is to come is their future), while in the past joan and scatty might do something maybe for examples sake say they cause a chain of events that leads to the fall of danu talis. Well they never knew it was themselves that caused this to happen until it comes to pass, but they do know that the event occurred. So Joan and Scatty being in the past could be a catalyst for some major event that comes to pass later on and effects the twins and the rest of the characters in the story's future, or their being in the past could be the reason why certain events have happened the way they did to lead to present day. See all very confusing but definitely lots of possibilities there.

Sounds like the description of the TV show Lost!

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Fuzzbinn

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#37 [url]

Jun 3 09 12:56 PM

QUOTE (budgge @ June 03, 2009 11:00 am)
QUOTE
Anyone have thoughts as to who the Necromancer is?



I think it's Josh. I think that Machiavelli or maybe even Billy the Kid trains him in the next one.

Might be Josh, but I was pretty sure the Josh is Warlock, and Sophie the Enchantress - last two books in the series, so one for each.
Also, if you go to the general book page on Michael's site (http://dillonscott.com./the-alchemyst/books.htm), he has the blurred out covers for the next 3 books. The Necromancer looks blackish/brownish (since Earth is the next element). Not sure if that would relate to characters, but more importantly the Warlock is distinctly gold-colored, (Josh) while the Enchantress is silver. (Sophie). Of course, these could just be place holder pics, but we'll have to wait and see.

Right now I'm leaning towards Billy the Kid.... we don't know too much about him, and if he was made immortal so young, he has to be REALLY good at something... maybe Necromancy?

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#38 [url]

Jun 3 09 12:56 PM

QUOTE (Spacecadet @ June 03, 2009 10:52 pm)
QUOTE (budgge @ June 03, 2009 07:34 am)
QUOTE (Spacecadet @ June 03, 2009 10:31 pm)

I think any of that is possible, but when you open up the possibility of time, the options seem limitless, but they (in most cases) are confined to the realm of what has already happened (you know the whole you cant change the past philosophy).  That despite something happening in the past (with respect to the world's timeline) it might be in someone else's future (i.e. joan's and scatty's).  So this is why i think joan and scatty being in the past is so interesting, because it could possibly allow us the readers to see into the elder's past and possibly see how some of the current things came to pass.  And in the end what seems like limitless possibilities to the readers is actually just a set of very well calculated movements that have already occurred (for the general population, but not scatty and joan).  Ahh the joys and confusion of time travel, but when planned out properly it all comes together quite nicely .

Wow, I never thought about it like that.

So are you saying they could have been sent to one of their own past's? Wow so many different ideas for twists are running through my head.

well not so much their own past's (although that is a possibility as well) but the general past. This is where things get confusing, Joan and Scatty are in the past (but what is to come is their future), while in the past joan and scatty might do something maybe for examples sake say they cause a chain of events that leads to the fall of danu talis. Well they never knew it was themselves that caused this to happen until it comes to pass, but they do know that the event occurred. So Joan and Scatty being in the past could be a catalyst for some major event that comes to pass later on and effects the twins and the rest of the characters in the story's future, or their being in the past could be the reason why certain events have happened the way they did to lead to present day. See all very confusing but definitely lots of possibilities there.

Well that could also cause the person 'acting in a different manner' that Michael mentioned could be The Necromancer. Maybe something they do causes Mars to become good again? And he is The Necromancer? Although I still stick with Josh being The Necromancer.

QUOTE (Fuzzbinn @ June 03, 2009 10:56 pm)
QUOTE (budgge @ June 03, 2009 11:00 am)
QUOTE
Anyone have thoughts as to who the Necromancer is?



I think it's Josh. I think that Machiavelli or maybe even Billy the Kid trains him in the next one.

Might be Josh, but I was pretty sure the Josh is Warlock, and Sophie the Enchantress - last two books in the series, so one for each.
Also, if you go to the general book page on Michael's site (http://dillonscott.com./the-alchemyst/books.htm), he has the blurred out covers for the next 3 books. The Necromancer looks blackish/brownish (since Earth is the next element). Not sure if that would relate to characters, but more importantly the Warlock is distinctly gold-colored, (Josh) while the Enchantress is silver. (Sophie). Of course, these could just be place holder pics, but we'll have to wait and see.

Right now I'm leaning towards Billy the Kid.... we don't know too much about him, and if he was made immortal so young, he has to be REALLY good at something... maybe Necromancy?

Very good suggestion about Billy actually being The Necromancer... Never thought of it like that

And also true that he is made immortal so young it could be because he is very good at necromancy.

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#39 [url]

Jun 3 09 1:15 PM

Okay, well I don't if I will be repeating anyone because it would take way too long to read what people wrote. Okay well First of all, I though it was awesome!!

I have to say my favorite part was with Gilgamesh in the cab, with the piece of paper and the silver tear! I cryed flamelssecret/crying.gif .

But I still have my Idea on the elements, because seriously does anyone notice how they all go you masy think the element of Earth is strongest or fire, but it's notce the element of..... I swear they are all the same!! That's it they are, they are all equal!! Because they can all do things to each other that the other can't!!

And the whole Scatty deal, I was so happy, I probably ran around the house for like 20 minutes! And Well as for her sister, wow that was...unexpected. And what Machieavelli did, that was mean. And I have to say this, HA HA Dee's in TROUBLE!! I never liked him. In real history he is interesting, yea. But I still dont like him.

About the Morrigan though, does that mean she can't technically die, but that her sisters just take over the body instead??

But overall AWESOME!!

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#40 [url]

Jun 3 09 1:32 PM

QUOTE (animal_lover12 @ June 03, 2009 11:15 pm)
Okay, well I don't if I will be repeating anyone because it would take way too long to read what people wrote. Okay well First of all, I though it was awesome!!

I have to say my favorite part was with Gilgamesh in the cab, with the piece of paper and the silver tear! I cryed flamelssecret/crying.gif .

But I still have my Idea on the elements, because seriously does anyone notice how they all go you masy think the element of Earth is strongest or fire, but it's notce the element of..... I swear they are all the same!! That's it they are, they are all equal!! Because they can all do things to each other that the other can't!!

And the whole Scatty deal, I was so happy, I probably ran around the house for like 20 minutes! And Well as for her sister, wow that was...unexpected. And what Machieavelli did, that was mean. And I have to say this, HA HA Dee's in TROUBLE!! I never liked him. In real history he is interesting, yea. But I still dont like him.

About the Morrigan though, does that mean she can't technically die, but that her sisters just take over the body instead??

But overall AWESOME!!

Of course they are all the same. Apart from time of course...

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Aura ~ Silver..........Scent ~ Permanent Marker

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